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Post by jamo on May 30, 2015 19:50:32 GMT 1
My father was a working class Tory but voted Labour in 1945 (whilst in the Far East) because he thought the Labour Party leadership had good people in it. How does that work ? I'm assuming your father was a product of his time and upbringing, ( my @rseumption may be entirely wrong of course ) expected to work in a certain trade and to expect no more and no less, i.e. Working class ( as we understand the meaning ), as indeed was my father - who , whilst he had many issues with The Labour Party would have rather not voted that vote Tory. What is the equivalent today ? What does a working class Tory mean ? then and now. And does the political system we have in this country just deliberately blur the lines just to confuse and hoodwink the electorate ?
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 7:16:18 GMT 1
I was impressed with the contribution of the historian Richard Overy for the way he quite dispassionately put his points and I felt I was better informed as a result. On one point Overy reminded me of my own studies in history: that Churchill was by no means the only figure to speak against the policy of appeasement - and probably not the first. Also, hearing my parents talk about pre-war policy at that time - and my grandmother too - the strong view they had was that Chamberlain was playing for time rather than being completely duped by Hitler. I don't think it is entirely black and white but Overy's comment about the increase in military spending from the 1930s did make me wonder whether Chamberlain's policy was one of hope for the best but plan for the worst. Interestingly Overy was involved in an academic dispute with another historian many years ago about whether Germany was driven to war because of its economic problems or because of Nazi ideology. My father was a working class Tory but voted Labour in 1945 (whilst in the Far East) because he thought the Labour Party leadership had good people in it. A book called "Guilty Men" was published shortly after the evacuation of France under the pseudonym 'Cato'. This denounced appeasement and named Chamberlain as one of the guilty men thus destroying his reputation for a generation and forming scholarly opinion for just as long. Some historians have suggested 'Cato' was a group of left wing journalists, because Michael Foot was one of the authors. However it has been shown that the other two authors where former Liberal and Tory MP's whose names totally escape me. It wasn't until the late 60s that AJP Taylor challenged the 'Cato' interpretation arguing that appeasement was a rational decision. The debate has raged ever since. Germany's reasons for war is interesting and probably both cases are true. Adam Tooze (Wages of Destruction) for example argues it was all about resources, but totally ignores the long held Germany foreign policy of looking East for living space and attitudes to the peoples in that living space.
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Post by SeanBroseley on May 31, 2015 20:46:22 GMT 1
My father was a working class Tory but voted Labour in 1945 (whilst in the Far East) because he thought the Labour Party leadership had good people in it. How does that work ? I'm assuming your father was a product of his time and upbringing, ( my @rseumption may be entirely wrong of course ) expected to work in a certain trade and to expect no more and no less, i.e. Working class ( as we understand the meaning ), as indeed was my father - who , whilst he had many issues with The Labour Party would have rather not voted that vote Tory. What is the equivalent today ? What does a working class Tory mean ? then and now. And does the political system we have in this country just deliberately blur the lines just to confuse and hoodwink the electorate ? This is something of a debate that flared up on twitter recently. My dad's situation doesn't speak to the present because he died in 1981. Let me bullet point a few facts about his life: - he entered work upon leaving school in the mid 30s. At that stage there were three wages going into his parents' home - which was rented from the council. - worked in the same factory until his death. - worked his way up over that period to be a production manager. - Living in a council house was the height of his aspiration. - He was happy to change his car every three years. About the height of his material ambitions - He spent 1941 to 1946 in the RAF traveled the world and wasn't on the frontline. - The skills he learnt during the war could have been a gateway to a different life working at the forerunner of GCHQ in Cheltenham. But he wanted to return home after 5 years away. - He was very intelligent - He wouldn't hurt a fly Those facts are enough to suggest that politically he could have been Labour or Conservative. Most especially when the Conservatives accepted the welfare state and nationalisation. But that was a completely different era.
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