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Post by TheFoz on Mar 30, 2015 17:11:51 GMT 1
"A white manager loses his job and gets another job, he loses his job, he gets another job," Barnes said. "Very few black managers can lose their job and get another job." Story here : m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/32112666What are people's views on this? Is there discrimination against black managers? Should the Rooney Rule be introduced? I personally think that regardless of skin colour, if you are good enough you will get the job. Look at the playing side, if you are a quality player then you will get in your side, regardless of colour. Barnes is an appalling manager and needs to stop playing the race card. If I was a Chairman , I wouldn't employ him because he has a rubbish record and has been out of work since 2009, no other reason. I'm against the Rooney Rule too, I don't think bosses are racist at all and it would be pointless to introduce. More ex black players going into coaching will inevitably lead to more managers being produced. I read somewhere that just 14 black men have a UEFA Pro License in Europe? Also a bit o/t saw someone say on twitter we rejected a black manager in the summer,Clarence Seedorf, any truth in this?
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Mar 30, 2015 17:59:04 GMT 1
With the money involved in football these days, it can ill afford to prejudice against anyone.
How is that footballers found guilty of rape or for causing death by dangerous driving or for biting an opponent, can still command high transfer figures and large salaries but a man guilty of nothing apart from being a dreadful, dreadful manager cannot find a job allegedly 'because he iz black'?
It is nonsense.
If you were pink with yellow spots and could score 30 goals a season, clubs would fall over each other trying to snap you up. The same would apply if you were a manager excelling in your profession. Does Barnes really think no Championship club will be keeping an eye on the job Hasselbaink is doing at Burton because they don't want a black manager? Get real.
Unfortunately claims like Barnes, Campbell, Ince et al do more detriment to what is a genuinely worthwhile topic of discussion - why are former black players seeming not to take a route into football management?
What I find disturbing is that charities such as 'Kick It Out' and organisations like the 'Black lawyers association' don't seem to be interested in the inequality or injustice of all men, but only the inequality or injustice of fellow black people. I actually put this to Jason Roberts on Twitter, when I questioned him on why he was remained silent about Nicholas Anelka being found guilty of anti-semitism yet seemed to be all over any racism accusation levelled at a white person, and he replied to me suggesting that it was because he "couldn't relate to it".
Personally I find the whole idea of positive discrimination revolting, and I especially do the rather marxist approach of categorising people as white/non-white - or 'BME' as they sell it as.
What I don't understand is how a manager who is mixed race, such as Chris Hughton is one of the names that is regularly listed as being one of the handful of 'black/ethnic minority' managers in the football league. Yet for example if you opened that up to including hispanic managers, you would notice the current Premier League title winning manager is himself an ethnic minority. As is Martinez, as was Poyet.
But of course that doesn't quite fit the agenda that is being angled at us, and unfortunately this detracts from any sensible debate on the topic.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 18:25:43 GMT 1
With the money involved in football these days, it can ill afford to prejudice against anyone. How is that footballers found guilty of rape or for causing death by dangerous driving or for biting an opponent, can still command high transfer figures and large salaries but a man guilty of nothing apart from being a dreadful, dreadful manager cannot find a job allegedly 'because he iz black'? It is nonsense. If you were pink with yellow spots and could score 30 goals a season, clubs would fall over each other trying to snap you up. The same would apply if you were a manager excelling in your profession. Does Barnes really think no Championship club will be keeping an eye on the job Hasselbaink is doing at Burton because they don't want a black manager? Get real. Unfortunately claims like Barnes, Campbell, Ince et al do more detriment to what is a genuinely worthwhile topic of discussion - why are former black players seeming not to take a route into football management? What I find disturbing is that charities such as 'Kick It Out' and organisations like the 'Black lawyers association' don't seem to be interested in the inequality or injustice of all men, but only the inequality or injustice of fellow black people. I actually put this to Jason Roberts on Twitter, when I questioned him on why he was remained silent about Nicholas Anelka being found guilty of anti-semitism yet seemed to be all over any racism accusation levelled at a white person, and he replied to me suggesting that it was because he "couldn't relate to it". Personally I find the whole idea of positive discrimination revolting, and I especially do the rather marxist approach of categorising people as white/non-white - or 'BME' as they sell it as. What I don't understand is how a manager who is mixed race, such as Chris Hughton is one of the names that is regularly listed as being one of the handful of 'black/ethnic minority' managers in the football league. Yet for example if you opened that up to including hispanic managers, you would notice the current Premier League title winning manager is himself an ethnic minority. As is Martinez, as was Poyet. But of course that doesn't quite fit the agenda that is being angled at us, and unfortunately this detracts from any sensible debate on the topic. Surely that should read "because ee iz black", not "because he iz black"!!
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Post by jamo on Mar 30, 2015 19:09:39 GMT 1
on the face of things there certainly appears to be a disproportionate number of black managers given the number of serious black contributors to our national game for some considerable time now. Is it overt racism ? I don't know but the question is worth asking.
What I do know is that the high profile black managers we have had , i,e Barnes, and Ince have hardly helped the cause with their sheer arrogance and incompetence. Compare them with the likes of Keith Alexandra, Chris Powell et al and there's no comparison. Hopefully the likes of Hasslebank and Chris Ramsey will go on to forge new chapters for black managers and help break down more barriers for others to follow
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Post by mattmw on Mar 30, 2015 19:42:15 GMT 1
This article from a few years ago makes some interesting points on the subject www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/football-is-as-meritocratic-as-any-industry-in-britain-so-why-are-there-so-few-black-managers-assistant-managers-and-coaches-8930213.htmlThink the whole set up of managerial appointments in British Football is a bit daft, and is still based on the old boys network rather than a clear strategy to appoint well qualified, innovative coaches. Don't think there is systematic racism in the game, more a "people like us" conservatism where Chairmen are much more likely to appoint a white ex player that meets the normal stereotype like a Steve Bruce or Stuart Pearce. The knock on effect is that black coaches don't see people like them getting jobs and so don't apply and you get into a declining circle. No one is quite to blame for this but you do need to break the circle of events to get some fresh blood and different ways of working into the system, which the English game could really do with
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Post by venceremos on Mar 30, 2015 19:50:42 GMT 1
Of course you'd get a manager's job if you were already a manager excelling in your profession. The point is surely whether everyone has the same opportunity to demonstrate excellence in the first place. I guess that comes down to the 116 senior clubs' manager jobs in men's football in England. Do I think all 116 chairmen would have no regard to race when assessing candidates? No, I'd find that hard to believe. I'm not suggesting they're overtly racist but you're not going to persuade me that none of those characters has a bias towards white candidates, even if they don't realise it themselves. If nothing else, it's often a generational thing. It's not about any particular individuals because they can only represent themselves, not their racial group. So the competence or otherwise of Barnes, Ince, Hasselbaink or Powell doesn't matter It's about equality of opportunity and I don't beleive it exists everywhere in football management and, until it does, I'd be in favour of positive discrimination, as I would in any walk of life. By the way LSF, Jason Roberts' comments re Anelka, as you report them, seem quite sensible. He's not Jewish, so it's not surprising he can't relate to anti-semitism in the same way as to racism against blacks. His is just one voice in this discussion, so why expect him to cover all angles of it? Silence might be better than an empty condemnation - "what we can't say we can't say, and we can't whistle it either" (to paraphrase Wittgenstein. Happy to debate, except with anyone using the phrase "PC brigade".
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Post by lenny on Mar 30, 2015 20:00:36 GMT 1
Is there really a disproportionate number of black managers? Genuine question - most managers are former players, and, as far as I'm aware, it's only within the last twenty/twenty-five years that racism within football has become less prevalent and black players have become as much as a fixture in the game as they are in wider society. Therefore, it stands to reason that most former players aged 40-70 will have been players either before or during that era, and so there would be more white than black ex-players who fit the bill, as it were.
As Matt says above, there is a stereotype for managers to fit that generally applies to appointments - it's touched on in the excellent book Why England Lose (recently re-released with a different title - Soccerball, I think) - of white males with a conservative haircut, when it's much easier for chairmen to avoid potential criticism by appointing someone already within the managerial circuit than taking a gamble on a new face. Some potential black managers may well be put off by the myth Barnes likes to perpetuate - LSF above also mentions something from the aforementioned book regarding the fact that clubs, particularly at the top end of the pyramid, cannot afford to discriminate against talented players/managers (although it also argues that managers in general don't make as much of a difference to teams as is widely believed [except the extremeties]).
I believe that article mentions that there are 6 black managers in the FL - I believe that's more than we have seen in the past (possibly an all-time high) and I suspect it will continue to increase, as those 6 get re-employed and joined by other, new managers. The point made in WEL is one about how, in fact, discrimination is in fact present regarding managers, but against women rather than black men. Interesting point to debate, too.
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Post by lenny on Mar 30, 2015 20:01:48 GMT 1
Oh no, not Venceremos. Can't be doing with the captain of the PC brigade joining in...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 20:03:41 GMT 1
Personally I think the reason John Barnes and Paul Ince have struggled to get another job is due to them being rubbish at management!
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Mar 30, 2015 20:59:20 GMT 1
"Very few black managers can lose their job and get another job."
Who is he referring to here? Other than himself, like. And I think its pretty clear why he hasn't found himself another management position, he's not too good at it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 22:04:24 GMT 1
"Very few black managers can lose their job and get another job." Who is he referring to here? Other than himself, like. And I think its pretty clear why he hasn't found himself another management position, he's not too good at it. Exhibit A.
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Post by essofsteel on Mar 30, 2015 22:47:12 GMT 1
He's playing the race card again. If a manager of any race is good he will get a job these days. (except maybe Wigan!)
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Mar 30, 2015 22:52:37 GMT 1
Perhaps Mr Barnes should concentrate on becoming a good manager before he can decide properly if black managers are unfairly treated. With his record he is bound to be looking for other excuses
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 10:25:44 GMT 1
What I find disturbing is that charities such as 'Kick It Out' and organisations like the 'Black lawyers association' don't seem to be interested in the inequality or injustice of all men, but only the inequality or injustice of fellow black people. I actually put this to Jason Roberts on Twitter, when I questioned him on why he was remained silent about Nicholas Anelka being found guilty of anti-semitism yet seemed to be all over any racism accusation levelled at a white person, and he replied to me suggesting that it was because he "couldn't relate to it". I have no time whatsoever for Roberts - bag of self serving wind.
Can well recall him telling Blackburn fans calling 606 they " didn't have a clue" for asking for the sacking of Kean and removal of there new owners.....a few weeks later, when his contact wasn't extended, his views had changed full circle!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 12:32:56 GMT 1
His managerial achievements were at best poor, yet I wouldn't be surprised he's got a ''chip'' on his shoulder considering the abuse he received as a player. If he'd been an alcoholic Geordie who ruined his career, beat up his wife, acted like a clown and won nothing he would have been lauded as a hero.
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Post by jonbond on Mar 31, 2015 13:07:54 GMT 1
The biggest load of rubbish I've ever heard. Paul Ince has been sacked 4 times Keith curle has been sacked twice and is currently in a job Chris Powell has been sacked and quickly got another job Chris hughton has been sacked twice and is currently in a job
So the whole premise of this piece by barnes is factually incorrect
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 15:18:10 GMT 1
Why did Barnes get the position of Celtic manager as his first foray into football managership. Obviously it was because of his being a Liverpool and England star ( although apart from THAT goal against Brasil, I thought he was pretty s**te in an England shirt ). Being a high profile player does not guarantee that you will automatically be good at managing, and so it proved with Barnes and others like Tony Adams who was equally very poor.
I would have thought that it would be better if Barnes and his ilk tried a bit lower down the food chain and learnt their trade, as well as attempting to get something in the way of qualifications for the job they are doing. Had to laugh when I saw that Barnes as his assistant at Tranmere one, Jason McAteer, not exactly the dream team.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 15:43:19 GMT 1
Being a high profile player does not guarantee that you will automatically be good at managing, and so it proved with Barnes and others like Tony Adams who was equally very poor. Good point.
Just look at the premiership and the playing careers of each manager:
1 Chelsea - Lower league player. 0 Caps 2 Man City - One club man in Chile. 28 Caps. 3 Arsenal - Average French top tier player. 0 Caps. 4 Man Utd - Average career in Dutch Leagues. 0 Caps. 5 Liverpool - Non-league player. 0 Caps. 6 Southampton - Excellent career. 78 Caps. 7 Tottenham - Solid Career. 20 Caps. 8 Swansea - Rose through leagues with Swansea. 0 Caps. 9 West Ham - Lower league journeyman. 0 Caps. 10 Stoke - Excellent career. 72 Caps. 11 Crystal Palace - Average career. 0 Caps. 12 Newcastle 30 - Non-league player. 0 Caps. 13 Everton - Lower league stalwart. 0 Caps. 14 West Brom - Journeyman. 0 Caps. 15 Hull - Solid career in several excellent teams. 1 B Cap. 16 Aston Villa - Solid career. 3 caps. 17 Sunderland - Journeyman in various leagues. 0 Caps. 18 Burnley - Solid and scary lower league player. 0 Caps. 19 QPR - Lower league player. 0 Caps. 20 Leicester - Started league career at some club in Shropshire . 0 Caps.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 1, 2015 11:31:14 GMT 1
Looking to the makeup of the population I understand that black players are over represented in professional football (percentage wise, like). So when looking to the number of managers we might think they are under represented (looking to compare with the number of players) but that might not be the case at all. I guess it comes down to how many are actually looking to move into management. I also think its a very good point that the increase of black players in professional football is relatively new, you would think that the majority of ex pros now looking to go into management will be white but in time more black players may wish to try their hand at management when their playing days are done. So we may see a difference in time. But then again maybe not, most players who have played at a decent level have made enough to go sit on some beach and enjoy life.
I dare say some people within football (as with every walk of life) are racist. How many? No idea but I do tend to agree that in this day and age I think the majority would hire anyone would can bring them success. I think the financial rewards available today would see to that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2015 12:39:11 GMT 1
I also think its a very good point that the increase of black players in professional football is relatively new, you would think that the majority of ex pros now looking to go into management will be white but in time more black players may wish to try their hand at management when their playing days are done. So we may see a difference in time. Yes thats the point I have made on several occasions. The emergence of black players is a relatively new thing so its no surprise that there arent that many black managers. Over time I expect that number to increase as more players from the current era retire and move into management. If in 10 or 20 years time then we have a similar number of black managers then I'd be surprised but if we did then I think its fair to say that there is a problem. In terms of Barnes's actual comments, he says "A white manager loses his job and gets another job", yes there are examples of managers who repeatedly get jobs but I bet there is a hell of a lot who only get jobs by dropping down the pyramid or completely disapear. People like Curle, Houghton, Ince, Powell have all been sacked and got jobs elsewhere so if there is an issue its not black managers struggling to get jobs after being sacked but the number of black managers who can get on the managerial merry-go-round. However as I've said above I expect that number will increase over time. There could be an issue, unfortunately when people like John Barnes are the ones raising it then it does detract from any potential issue because he had opportunities but failed.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 1, 2015 13:05:49 GMT 1
Well I think it would be a mistake to automatically assume that. Again I think it's important to take into account the number of black players who might be looking to step into management. Plus of course, it could just happen to be the case that the better managers just happen to be white. I mean that is possible. I know some people will dismiss that out of hand (not saying that of you of course) but that could just be the case.
As for Barnes, I have no doubt that there is racism in football and it should be tackled but he doesn't really help the situation with how he is going about things. He shouldn't be looking to use his own experiences as to how racism in football is holding black managers back. He got his chance at one of the biggest football clubs in the UK and he simply wasn't up to it. His managerial record was pretty awful and more to the point the rumours were he lost the dressing rooms at both Celtic and Tranmere pretty quickly. People take notice of such things.
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Post by Minormorris64 on Apr 1, 2015 13:53:40 GMT 1
Here is a list (albeit Incomplete) of Pro-Licences in the UK, how many non white holders are there ? Surely if you don't do the Badge you won't get a job ?
England
Qualified in 2002 Dick Bate Noel Blake Terry Burton Tony Dorigo Steve Cotterill Mervyn Day Dario Gradi Stewart Houston Martin Hunter Chris Hughton Sammy Lee[1] Lawrie Sanchez[1] Alan Smith Martin Rennie
Qualified in 2003 Stuart Baxter Phil Brown Willie Donachie Joe Joyce Derek Fazackerley Stuart Gray John McDermott Mark McGhee Alan Pardew Stuart Pearce[1] Nigel Pearson David Platt Hope Powell - the first female to qualify Nigel Spackman Dave Watson Peter Withe Nigel Worthington
Qualified in 2004 Mark Bowen[1] Paul Bracewell John Carver Stephen Constantine Steve Coppell Kevin Dillon Iain Dowie Wally Downes David Geddis Joe Jordan Bryan Klug Nicky Law Brian Laws Steve McClaren[1] Neil McDonald Richard Money Tony Mowbray Sean O'Driscoll John Peacock Geoff Pike Steve Round Kevin Sheedy Paul Simpson Steve Walford Mark Hughes
Qualified in 2005 Ian Atkins Andy Barlow Frank Barlow Kevin Blackwell George Burley Ian Butterworth Terry Connor Simon Davey Bryan Klug Colin Lee Gary Megson John Morling Phil Parkinson Bryan Robson Glynn Snodin Sam Allardyce[1] Steve McClaren Craig Coles
Qualified in 2006 Martin Allen[2] Kevin Bond[2] Aidy Boothroyd[2] Steve Clarke[2] John Collins[2] Paul Davis[2] Nigel Gibbs[2] Kenny Jackett[2] Martin Ling[2] John McMahon[2] Keith Millen[2] Eddie Niedzwiecki[2] Chris Ramsey[2] Martin Scott[2] René Meulensteen[2] Dave Penney[2] Neil Thompson[2] Jason Withe[2]
Qualified in 2007 Tony Adams[2] Keith Alexander[2] Warren Barton[2] Steve Bleasdale[2] Martin Foyle[2] Steve Holland[2] Chris Hutchings[2] Alex Inglethorpe[2] Gary Johnson[2] Kevin Keen[2] Alan Knill[2] Kevin MacDonald[2] Mick McCarthy[2] Iffy Onuora[2] Jimmy Phillips[2] Mark Robson[2] Glenn Roeder[2] Leroy Rosenior[2] Steve Rutter[2]
Qualified in 2008 Gary Ablett[2] Steve Agnew[2] Kevin Ball[3] Naseem Bashir[4] Steve Beaglehole[5] Paul Brush[2] John Dungworth[2] Siggi Eyjolfsson[2] Martin Gray[2] Ricki Herbert[2] Jim Hicks[2] Roy Keane[3] Mo Marley[2] - the second female to qualify Ian McParland[6] Dave Parnaby[2] Mark Proctor[2] Brendan Rodgers[2] John Schofield[2] Dean Smith[2] Adrian Whitbread[2] Terry Savage[2]
Qualified in 2009 Gareth Southgate[7] Mike Phelan[7] Graeme Jones[7] Dave Hockaday[7]
Qualified in 2014 Brad Friedel[8] Siddhesh Ghosalkar[8] Riley Williams[8]
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Post by TheFoz on Apr 2, 2015 15:04:25 GMT 1
QPR boss Chris Ramsey: Being black harms job prospects QPR boss Chris Ramsey says being black will make it more difficult to find work should he leave Loftus Road www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/321613890Losing 6 out of your 7 games of manager isn't going to help either Chris
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Post by Pilch on Apr 3, 2015 0:00:27 GMT 1
barnes stop crying
not many managers who fail after being throw in at the deep end then get another chance
he got another chance at tranmere and failed there too
maybe it was something to do with the italia 90 squad there are some awful managers there
shilton, bryan robson, mark wright, gazza, stuart pearce is about the best and he's been poor
i think what he's saying his he wants a premiership position offered to him on a plate with £10M a year salary
don;t we all
start applying for jobs in the conference you muppet and prove yourself
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