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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 12:59:23 GMT 1
Are they really all that bad? if administered correctly and used in the industries that are labour intensive with no set hours, they are great.
I take on people every May on Zero hour contracts about 20 or 30 people that work at festivals, unlicensed people are on Min wage, but licensed staff are paid more. Of the people I took on, 15 had been long term unemployed, got licensed, and trained, and all but 2 have now moved from me into full time employment. It was a great stepping stone for them, had a great summer doing diverse work and most enjoyed themselves, and a few are even taking holiday from there normal full time employment to work at the festivals again this year.
So are Labour really going to try and demonise this type of work?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 13:08:48 GMT 1
There is a place for them in the current climate of flexible working and there is no doubt that it suits a certain type of worker.
However I feel that it is unfair for a person not to be able to find other work while there is none to be had from the employer offering a zero hour contract.
Also more notice needs to be given when work is available.
As I understand it at the moment there is no regulation around zero hour contracts and clearly there needs to be. I think that is what Labour want.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 13:12:15 GMT 1
Nicko, I am in full agreement.
For this years work commitment, I have already give outline dates and hours to be expected. The rules I work to are that if you are available, book in and come along, if not, then enjoy whatever it is you have planned. There is no exclusivity to a company, the only thing I ask is that if you commit yourself, then please turn up and complete the work you have committed yourself to.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 13:19:05 GMT 1
And that clearly works in your sector.
However I know people on zero hour contracts who are tied exclusively to the employer who offered them the contract. They are not allowed to work for another employer and have to be ready at short notice.
You can imagine the problem that causes the employee.
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Post by shrewsace on Mar 29, 2015 13:22:20 GMT 1
If they're mutually beneficial then fair enough, but the number of people these contracts suit will be dwarfed by the those who would would prefer something far more secure and dependable.
It's something of a statistical sleight of hand for the Tories to claim 2m jobs have been created on their watch when so many are zero-contract or self 'employed'/freelance.
Particularly when they use the slogan about 2m more people having the 'security of a pay packet' when, of course, zero hours contract offer no such thing.
Downie, what do you mean by 'administered correctly' - seems you acknowledge there are ways these sort of contracts can be abused?
Do festivals not have run between specific times over specific days? How come these workers are on zero hours? (not having a go, just interested).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 13:25:35 GMT 1
And that clearly works in your sector. However I know people on zero hour contracts who are tied exclusively to the employer who offered them the contract. They are not allowed to work for another employer and have to be ready at short notice. You can imagine the problem that causes the employee. Well get those people to speak to lawyers because exclusivity to a single company is illegal if on a zero hour contract.
before the term zero hour contracts, it was classed as casual labour, it will never stop as the need for staff in some sectors is very seasonal. and if you plan accordingly, and have a good pool of staff, then even short notice stuff should be easily covered without forcing people into work
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Post by shrewsace on Mar 29, 2015 13:25:55 GMT 1
And that clearly works in your sector. However I know people on zero hour contracts who are tied exclusively to the employer who offered them the contract. They are not allowed to work for another employer and have to be ready at short notice. You can imagine the problem that causes the employee. Yes, it must be difficult for people, particularly those with children or elderly relatives who depend on them. The exploitative/one sided nature of some of these contracts need to be tackled.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 13:28:41 GMT 1
Are they really bad - yes.
Are Labour trying to demonise this type of work - no.
Cameron obviously doesn't understand how they work or who "benefits " from them. In fact most zero hours contracts are taken up not by students or young adults but by workers in the 35 to 64 age group. No wonder people struggle to pay their bills . No guarantee of work and the possibility of losing your job at any time such as it is.
Yeah, a great stepping stone for people isn't it and most enjoyable.
You need to get into the real world .
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 13:30:19 GMT 1
administered correctly is not a term for being abused. it means proper planning and communication with people.
Festivals are planned years in advance (larger ones such as Glastonbury and so on) but manning schedules change on a daily basis, we get a booking for Glastonbury in Feb each year, but every year the confirmed booking of staff is normally on the Monday prior and even then can change. So although dates and times are confirmed, manning levels are ever changing.
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Post by shrewsace on Mar 29, 2015 13:33:48 GMT 1
administered correctly is not a term for being abused. it means proper planning and communication with people. I didn't mean that, I meant if there are way of administering them correctly there must also be ways of administering them incorrectly. It's the incorrect or exploitative/unfair ways of administering that Labour want to address, so I think that's fair enough. Thanks for the explanation.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 13:35:38 GMT 1
Are they really bad - yes. Are Labour trying to demonise this type of work - no. Cameron obviously doesn't understand how they work or who "benefits " from them. In fact most zero hours contracts are taken up not by students or young adults but by workers in the 35 to 64 age group. No wonder people struggle to pay their bills . No guarantee of work and the possibility of losing your job at any time such as it is. Yeah, a great stepping stone for people isn't it and most enjoyable. You need to get into the real world . LOL, real world eh, only been in this industry since I left the Army, which was 10 years ago, 90% of the people I use are indeed students, as are most of the staff that work the festivals and concerts.
Your obviously so knowledgeable about life, can you please inform me what its like?
What about self employed? they receive the same benefits as people on Zero hour contracts, and there are plenty of them who state its what they want as it allows them to pick and choose what they do. or have they also been forced into that type of work.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Mar 29, 2015 13:39:47 GMT 1
Well I certainly wouldn't wish to find myself on one. Not with a wife and three kids to support.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 13:40:19 GMT 1
Mr D, are you bored? I do this sometimes if I'm bored. Come on B&A and be deliberately controversial to try and start an argument just to pass the time!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 13:46:21 GMT 1
Mr D, are you bored? I do this sometimes if I'm bored. Come on B&A and be deliberately controversial to try and start an argument just to pass the time! Perhaps I should take the advise of the well travelled and renowned individual known as severnheaven and get into the real world eh....
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Post by jamo on Mar 29, 2015 14:00:15 GMT 1
The fact that the whole system of Zero Hours contracts is so widely abused by some employers tells you all that you need to know about the current arrangements,, ie, they are unfair, heavily biased in favour of the employer and de stabilising for whole swathes of the working population.
If you want to employ someone to carry out work on your behalf do so by giving the same commitment you are asking them to sign up to.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 14:07:25 GMT 1
Mr D, are you bored? I do this sometimes if I'm bored. Come on B&A and be deliberately controversial to try and start an argument just to pass the time! Perhaps I should take the advise of the well travelled and renowned individual known as severnheaven and get into the real world eh.... Excellent. That would be a start
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Post by mattmw on Mar 29, 2015 14:09:50 GMT 1
Don't have a problem with zero hours contracts as a start into employment, or for temporary contracts. But don't think they are particularly beneficial long term as employees on them have no great security which makes it difficult for long term financial commitments like loans, mortgages or renting of properties
There's also the suspicion these contracts are a way of masking the unemployment figures and are perhaps why 40% of working people are also receiving some kind of in work benefit. Great they are getting people into work but not really helping the long term productivity of the economy
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Post by highlandshrew on Mar 29, 2015 14:25:33 GMT 1
Downie, surely you would agree there is a huge difference between you offering short-term, part-time employment opportunities and (as an example) Sports Direct operating a large percentage of it's retail business using employees on long-term zero hours contracts?
Students typically don't have too many on-going financial commitments or families to look after. Zero hours contracts make it almost impossible for people to obtain a mortgage or doing any financial planning such as savings commitments, pension provision, family planning, etc..
I am not saying that zero hours contracts are universally bad, but the contracts should automatically be replaced after a determined period of employment (e.g. 6 months working in the same job should afford the employee 'permanent' contractual benefits). Without such a safeguard the zero-hours system is open to exploitation by unscrupulous employers.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 14:35:37 GMT 1
Downie, surely you would agree there is a huge difference between you offering short-term, part-time employment opportunities and (as an example) Sports Direct operating a large percentage of it's retail business using employees on long-term zero hours contracts? Students typically don't have too many on-going financial commitments or families to look after. Zero hours contracts make it almost impossible for people to obtain a mortgage or doing any financial planning such as savings commitments, pension provision, family planning, etc.. I am not saying that zero hours contracts are universally bad, but the contracts should automatically be replaced after a determined period of employment (e.g. 6 months working in the same job should afford the employee 'permanent' contractual benefits). Without such a safeguard the zero-hours system is open to exploitation by unscrupulous employers. I agree with most of that, and companies that do trade every day of the year certainly should not be allowed to do that, it also keeps the companies from paying NI Contributions as they will undoubtedly be keeping them under the threshold that means the companies do not pay a contribution.
But there are laws already in place that that if you have done in the last 13 weeks, an average of 40 hours per week, then that has become custom and can be argued that it is now full time employment. But peoples lack of employment laws means very few follow it up.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 14:37:55 GMT 1
And that clearly works in your sector. However I know people on zero hour contracts who are tied exclusively to the employer who offered them the contract. They are not allowed to work for another employer and have to be ready at short notice. You can imagine the problem that causes the employee. Well get those people to speak to lawyers because exclusivity to a single company is illegal if on a zero hour contract.
before the term zero hour contracts, it was classed as casual labour, it will never stop as the need for staff in some sectors is very seasonal. and if you plan accordingly, and have a good pool of staff, then even short notice stuff should be easily covered without forcing people into work
Like any other contract the employee will usually have to ask permission from the employer to take another job. Due to the nature of zero hour contracts this does not suit all employers so they can refuse as per the terms of the contract. This again causes problems for the employee that I shouldn't have to explain.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 15:21:16 GMT 1
My main concern with zero hours contracts is that they are, in some circumstances , seen as an alternative to a regular contract with all that that entails The number of people on zero hours contracts is growing . If students wish to take up these contracts fine, I have no problem with that . I understand that one in six workers on these contracts are students., three quarters of all new contracts went to workers aged between 35 to 64. The number on zero hours in 2014 grew from 586,000 to 697000 .
A fair percentage then are working as and when on poor rates of pay, minimal rights to claim unfair dismissal and no right to redundancy payments .
Exploitative and one sided . I guess that would be on the side of the employer then Shrewsace ? ,
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 16:05:58 GMT 1
I currently manage a small team, some on zero hour and some on set hours. Those on set hours don't give a monkeys and those on zero bust a gut, have dug me out of various holes, work more hours and actually get paid more per hour than they would if they had a set hour contract.
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Post by shrewsace on Mar 29, 2015 22:44:23 GMT 1
I currently manage a small team, some on zero hour and some on set hours. Those on set hours don't give a monkeys and those on zero bust a gut, have dug me out of various holes, work more hours and actually get paid more per hour than they would if they had a set hour contract. Will you be rewarding those 'gut busting' workers with the security of a set-hours contract if vacancies should arise?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 5:04:36 GMT 1
I currently manage a small team, some on zero hour and some on set hours. Those on set hours don't give a monkeys and those on zero bust a gut, have dug me out of various holes, work more hours and actually get paid more per hour than they would if they had a set hour contract. Will you be rewarding those 'gut busting' workers with the security of a set-hours contract if vacancies should arise? Yes. The other option is to sack them off and bring in an unknown quantity and I can't imagine many companies are that daft. Hard work and dedication needs to be rewarded. I was on a zero hour contract for a year and once a permanent position arose I was a manager 5 months later. Career progression is one area I can't fault my place for.
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Post by percy on Mar 30, 2015 7:09:26 GMT 1
I currently manage a small team, some on zero hour and some on set hours. Those on set hours don't give a monkeys and those on zero bust a gut, have dug me out of various holes, work more hours and actually get paid more per hour than they would if they had a set hour contract. If I was employed by the hour with the productivity of each scrutinized I would work harder - I think we probably all would. But honestly, would any of us want to live like that ? Short term contracts in specific circumstances maybe - but even then I cannot see how it is better than employing on a normal temp contract which has more certainty. More than a month on this kind of arrangement I really cannot see how you can justify it.
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