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Post by markglasgow on Mar 22, 2015 18:21:03 GMT 1
This season brought a new manager and a new CEO. Despite the new faces and ideas it seems that the ultimate target has remained the same, somehow getting Town back into the 2nd tier of English football. After reading this article about the mind-boggling levels of debt accrued by clubs in that division, the question must be could STFC conceivably carve a sustainable future for themselves at that level? Could we survive and somehow balance the books. Seems impossible to me. The article is based on Data from the 2012-13 season but one can imagine that not many clubs have managed to make much of dent in the huge amounts they owe. Find the article below. It's enough to make your eyes water.... www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/may/22/championship-club-accounts-profit-loss-and-the-wage-bill
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Post by champagneprince on Mar 22, 2015 18:26:17 GMT 1
I bet the fans of some of those clubs still moaned 'there was no ambition.'
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2015 19:04:48 GMT 1
Since then haven't the Championship adopted the same constraints re Wages/Turnover as Leagues 1 and 2. That's why QPR are going to be in the s**t if/when they are relegated.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2015 19:12:56 GMT 1
We’ll be a yo-yo team between the two bottom divisions for the foreseeable future.
I’ll be happy with that thank you very much.
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Post by Catalyst Cartel on Mar 22, 2015 20:16:52 GMT 1
I can see the current setup at this club getting to the championship and growing as a club.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2015 20:32:57 GMT 1
I can see the current setup at this club getting to the championship and growing as a club. I,m all for ambition , but if we are not careful ambition becomes a pipe dream, as in brought on by inhaling too much on the owd bong. The current set-up I presume means the management and senior back room staff, most of whom I doubt will be with us within the next 5 years. The difference between the Championship Now and Division 2 1979 is ....friggin millions, and we just do not have the fan base to pay enough through the turnstiles to even cover the extra Police costs. For or me I can enjoy a few good Cup runs , and playing in this League or the one above. Something sustainable.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Mar 23, 2015 9:59:12 GMT 1
I think it can work both ways. If you can keep a tight ship whilst others maybe struggling with debt then you might well be in a decent position to compete. Crazy number though. Wouldn't want Town anywhere near the sort of debt listed there.
Makes a bit of a mockery of the criticism some reserve for one or two clubs who they look to be spending beyond their means. That information would suggest that's the norm rather than the exception (if I've understood that right). Which I think has always been the case anyhows.
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Post by shrewder on Mar 23, 2015 10:33:47 GMT 1
I can see the current setup at this club getting to the championship and growing as a club. I,m all for ambition , but if we are not careful ambition becomes a pipe dream, as in brought on by inhaling too much on the owd bong. The current set-up I presume means the management and senior back room staff, most of whom I doubt will be with us within the next 5 years. The difference between the Championship Now and Division 2 1979 is ....friggin millions, and we just do not have the fan base to pay enough through the turnstiles to even cover the extra Police costs. For or me I can enjoy a few good Cup runs , and playing in this League or the one above. Something sustainable. Agree whatever league we are in the club has to sustainable. The old adage of being prompted in work above you ability is very apt to football as well. Yes it would seem wonderful to reach the Championship but not if it all comes crashing down and we end up in freefall back down the divisions because we end up with financial problems .
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Post by davycrockett on Mar 23, 2015 10:40:14 GMT 1
I see the club in the best financial position, making a good profit, no debt, with wages in proportion to turnover is Blackpool! Might be the most hated owners in the land but living according to their means.... Hey perhaps if we could get their chief exec........................................ just a minute we have a plan ( only problem s we'd have to get to the premiership for a year to enjoy the parachute payments)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 11:13:40 GMT 1
I can see the current setup at this club getting to the championship and growing as a club. I,m all for ambition , but if we are not careful ambition becomes a pipe dream, as in brought on by inhaling too much on the owd bong. The current set-up I presume means the management and senior back room staff, most of whom I doubt will be with us within the next 5 years. The difference between the Championship Now and Division 2 1979 is ....friggin millions, and we just do not have the fan base to pay enough through the turnstiles to even cover the extra Police costs. For or me I can enjoy a few good Cup runs , and playing in this League or the one above. Something sustainable. I too would be more than happy for us to become an established league 1 side over the next few years with a few exciting cup runs thrown in to boost the coffers. I look at Bournemouth and I can only wonder how long they can sustain their on field success on an average crowd of 8,500 and a ground capacity of just 12,000. Our current capacity of 9,500 therefore looks woefully short for championship football, even if we could get near full houses for each game.
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Mar 23, 2015 11:22:43 GMT 1
Bournemouth are probably the next 'small' club to crash and burn in the next few years - especially if they reach the promised land for 12 months.
Don't think I'd be a small trader looking to be involved with them at present given their recent past.
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Post by markglasgow on Mar 23, 2015 11:35:28 GMT 1
I see the club in the best financial position, making a good profit, no debt, with wages in proportion to turnover is Blackpool! Might be the most hated owners in the land but living according to their means.... Hey perhaps if we could get their chief exec........................................ just a minute we have a plan ( only problem s we'd have to get to the premiership for a year to enjoy the parachute payments)Yeah Blackpool are the only club to be in a positive position financially but really should be in a much better place given the minimum £40m they made from their one season in the prem and the incredible £48m they have since received in parachute payments. It doesn't help when the Oysten's 'allegedly' paid themselves £11m in salaries and took a further £24m from the coffers in interest free loans to pump into other business interests. You can easily understand why Matt jumped ship. www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/sep/24/blackpool-karl-oyston-fulham-championship
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Post by markglasgow on Mar 23, 2015 11:52:47 GMT 1
Bournemouth are probably the next 'small' club to crash and burn in the next few years - especially if they reach the promised land for 12 months. Don't think I'd be a small trader looking to be involved with them at present given their recent past. Our friends on the south coast casually recorded losses of over £15m for the year ending July 2013. This level of losses may reduce due to the increased income offered by Championship football but as we know to compete at Championship level you need to invest substantially once again. www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/sport/11180579.AFC_Bournemouth__Cherries_post___15million_losses/And what of perennial B&A faves Cardiff City. The Premiership was their target and by reaching this goal it has left the club more financially broken than ever before. Despite pocketing a cool £80m from their 38 match Premiership holiday they find themselves £174m in the red. This has left Keith Morgan from the CCFC trust completely bewildered. Some interesting quotes below. www.cardiffcity-mad.co.uk/news/tmnw/latest_figures_show_city_174m_in_debt_855447/index.shtml
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Post by venceremos on Mar 23, 2015 12:16:16 GMT 1
As I read that, if we matched the highest wages to turnover ratio (190% - Bristol City & Cardiff City) we'd still come in slightly below the lowest wage bill of £6.2m (Peterborough). That's worth repeating for emphasis - if we spent twice as much as our income, we'd still have the smallest wage bill in the Championship. If anyone thinks that's sustainable, I just hope you're not working in a position of any financial responsibility - and don't have too high a credit limit on your cards!
Unless the finances of the Championship are reformed, it's surely impossible for us to stay up there, even if we might one day manage to reach it.
The Blackpool case is an interesting one. Leaving aside the behind the scenes stuff, the published financials suggest it's financially the best run club in the Championship. And yet it's about to drop out of it.
All I'd ask is that the club is honest with us and tells us what's affordable, what isn't and why. Nobody can then complain, unless they're ready to stump up a lot more cash of their own.
It's crazy. The TV money will never be spread more evenly and, to be honest, would it be right to do that? I wonder what the TV audiences for Wolves - Derby and Bournemouth - Middlesbrough were compared to Liverpool - United? All top of the table clashes but I bet there's no comparison.
The gulf is too big and it's damaging the leagues below. Maybe that doesn't matter so long as there are enough fools with deep pockets and inflated egos prepared to fund these losses and everyone's happy to rely on such individuals to keep the circus running.
A healthier alternative might be to let the Premier League pull up the drawbridge, abandon promotion/relegation and let the Championship be the pinnacle of lower league football. Clubs of our size would then have a chance.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 12:49:55 GMT 1
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Mar 23, 2015 13:19:16 GMT 1
As I read that, if we matched the highest wages to turnover ratio (190% - Bristol City & Cardiff City) we'd still come in slightly below the lowest wage bill of £6.2m (Peterborough). That's worth repeating for emphasis - if we spent twice as much as our income, we'd still have the smallest wage bill in the Championship. If anyone thinks that's sustainable, I just hope you're not working in a position of any financial responsibility - and don't have too high a credit limit on your cards! Unless the finances of the Championship are reformed, it's surely impossible for us to stay up there, even if we might one day manage to reach it. The Blackpool case is an interesting one. Leaving aside the behind the scenes stuff, the published financials suggest it's financially the best run club in the Championship. And yet it's about to drop out of it. All I'd ask is that the club is honest with us and tells us what's affordable, what isn't and why. Nobody can then complain, unless they're ready to stump up a lot more cash of their own. It's crazy. The TV money will never be spread more evenly and, to be honest, would it be right to do that? I wonder what the TV audiences for Wolves - Derby and Bournemouth - Middlesbrough were compared to Liverpool - United? All top of the table clashes but I bet there's no comparison. The gulf is too big and it's damaging the leagues below. Maybe that doesn't matter so long as there are enough fools with deep pockets and inflated egos prepared to fund these losses and everyone's happy to rely on such individuals to keep the circus running. A healthier alternative might be to let the Premier League pull up the drawbridge, abandon promotion/relegation and let the Championship be the pinnacle of lower league football. Clubs of our size would then have a chance. This is so right on every level.
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Post by percy on Mar 23, 2015 14:51:18 GMT 1
This season brought a new manager and a new CEO. Despite the new faces and ideas it seems that the ultimate target has remained the same, somehow getting Town back into the 2nd tier of English football. After reading this article about the mind-boggling levels of debt accrued by clubs in that division, the question must be could STFC conceivably carve a sustainable future for themselves at that level? Could we survive and somehow balance the books. Seems impossible to me. The article is based on Data from the 2012-13 season but one can imagine that not many clubs have managed to make much of dent in the huge amounts they owe. Find the article below. It's enough to make your eyes water.... www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/may/22/championship-club-accounts-profit-loss-and-the-wage-bill Great article - thanks for posting - really surprised at some of the data. Some are not half as bad as I thought they would be.
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twentysix
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Post by twentysix on Mar 23, 2015 15:58:39 GMT 1
He's a boy is young Oyston. Chip off the old block. Now up on an FA charge for abusing fans by text. Gotta love him ..... not.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 16:21:28 GMT 1
Having spent several years trying to get out of League 2, I think the club statements about Championship ambitions were naive to say the least, especially with no additional investment. When I first started supporting Shrewsbury we were an established tier 3 side and getting back to that condition should be our medium term aim, realistically. Yes a good League 1 season could see us jump into the Championship, as 1 or 2 clubs of our size have done recently, but it would be something to be savoured, because it would be hard to stay there for any length of time like we did in the 80s (not without an injection of resources anyway)
I've always thought that the new ground should help us to sustain many consecutive years of league football, rather than give us any realistic hopes of Championship football.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Mar 23, 2015 16:52:32 GMT 1
Widening the topic, it's disappointing how little the influx of money into the English game has had any beneficial effect, other than for the bank balances of players and agents.
Nothing trickles down to the grass roots, fans of bigger clubs are being priced out of the game, the Premiership is dominated by a handful of clubs and clubs like ours have minimal realistic chance of survival in the Championship.
Championship clubs are putting their futures at risk in an attempt to get at Premiership cash and meanwhile our National and club sides become less effective in international competitions.
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Post by venceremos on Mar 23, 2015 19:05:07 GMT 1
Widening the topic, it's disappointing how little the influx of money into the English game has had any beneficial effect, other than for the bank balances of players and agents. Nothing trickles down to the grass roots, fans of bigger clubs are being priced out of the game, the Premiership is dominated by a handful of clubs and clubs like ours have minimal realistic chance of survival in the Championship. Championship clubs are putting their futures at risk in an attempt to get at Premiership cash and meanwhile our National and club sides become less effective in international competitions. Yes, strange how Mr Scudamore sees such a rosey garden when anyone else might wonder why no Premier League clubs were good enough to reach the quarter finals of the UEFA tournaments and the national team remains firmly outside the international elite. It wouldn't be all about the money, would it?
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Post by TheFoz on Mar 23, 2015 19:56:14 GMT 1
I'm looking at clubs that have got promoted from League Two to League One last year and they mostly seemed to have done well.
Rochdale (8th) 3 points from play offs Fleetwood (10th) 4 points from play offs Chesterfield (11th) 5 points from play offs Sc***horpe (17th) 13 points from play offs
I think "if" we did get promoted, we are in a very good position e.g most players under contract so if any players leave we will be due some ££££.
I've seen us vs higher opposition and we haven't been outclassed by a single one , a couple of quality additions in the summer could see us performing very well.
If we did then get promotion to the championship, I think the average Championship team gets £3 million from just TV revenue which would be a big boost financially. Just try and stay up on the cheap, don't spend beyond your means and see what happens.
Brentford and Bournemouth are quite similar sized clubs and could be in The Premier League next year so why can't we make it to The Championship sometime in the future??
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 20:22:04 GMT 1
Will FFP and Wage budget's based on a % percentage of turnover benefit or hamper Shrewsbury? Portsmouth, Plymouth and Coventry if they become properly run they will/should naturally become higher division clubs as they will have larger budgets than most in L1 & L2 based on their fan base. If the league subsequently become more natural looking with placings following the size of Club's more where will that place Shrewsbury in future? L1, L2 or Championship. I'd currently place us up the top of L2 to lower L1 in size with a push for the L1 Playoffs a very successful season. We have to remember that no matter how poor last season was it was without doubt the strongest L1 in history considering the size of the members in it. Yet will we ever see as strong L1's again or will we be more of a natural fit?
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Post by Minormorris64 on Mar 24, 2015 14:12:02 GMT 1
Widening the topic, it's disappointing how little the influx of money into the English game has had any beneficial effect, other than for the bank balances of players and agents. Nothing trickles down to the grass roots, fans of bigger clubs are being priced out of the game, the Premiership is dominated by a handful of clubs and clubs like ours have minimal realistic chance of survival in the Championship. Championship clubs are putting their futures at risk in an attempt to get at Premiership cash and meanwhile our National and club sides become less effective in international competitions. Speaking as the Treasurer (30 years service) of a "grassroots" Club (Division 1-Mercian League), the rubbish that Scudamore comes out with on a regular basis is both priceless, frightening and utterly naïve.
At one point last Season for a Home game the Pitch/ Changing Room Hire came to £65, then 3 (yes Three) Officials at our level came to another £70, so a grand total of £135 just for the Club to play a League game !, this includes the Club cutting & marking the pitch.
Some pearls of wisdom from Scudamore here www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b055jsls
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Post by supermac11 on Mar 24, 2015 15:48:57 GMT 1
Watching my son playing in junior football in the Stockport/Cheshire/peak district areas over the last few years has been illuminating. The pitches/facilities are generally awful. The home ground my son plays on (owned by a local council) rarely gets cut during the season. Two weeks ago he played on a pitch where water was just continually oozing up through the surface. The goalmouths were mixture of sand, puddles and mud (not to mention dog crap). This is not uncommon. Then the FA and others puzzle why we don’t produce skilled/technical footballers. It’s difficult to play passing football on a bobbly mudbath. So lots of teams for all there good intentions ending up play hoofball with the biggest and strongest succeeding.
At the other end of the scale, my son’s team went on a tour of the Etihad this year and there was much talk of benefiting the community (indeed City are investing in local community activities) but one was constantly struck by what a strange world modern footballers must live in where everything is done for them. A minuscule amount of the money that goes to these clubs/players/agents could make a massive difference to junior/parks football. But there is neither the will nor incentive.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Mar 24, 2015 16:10:19 GMT 1
Brentford and Bournemouth are quite similar sized clubs and could be in The Premier League next year so why can't we make it to The Championship sometime in the future?? Because both Brentford and Bournemouth are being bank rolled by people willing to invest millions into the club? Whilst we're not. I think it can be a little misleading looking to other clubs of a similar size to gauge our own success or potential. For the most part it's all down to how much the chaps with the money are willing and able to plough in. Along with Brentford and Bournemouth you can add Rotherham. Posh too. I think the general consensus is that these clubs have managed to make progress up the leagues because of the money their owners have been willing to 'invest' in the club. At the moment we don't have that.
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Mar 25, 2015 0:39:15 GMT 1
Brentford and Bournemouth are quite similar sized clubs and could be in The Premier League next year so why can't we make it to The Championship sometime in the future?? Because both Brentford and Bournemouth are being bank rolled by people willing to invest millions into the club? Whilst we're not. I think it can be a little misleading looking to other clubs of a similar size to gauge our own success or potential. For the most part it's all down to how much the chaps with the money are willing and able to plough in. Along with Brentford and Bournemouth you can add Rotherham. Posh too. I think the general consensus is that these clubs have managed to make progress up the leagues because of the money their owners have been willing to 'invest' in the club. At the moment we don't have that.And in time they might lose that investment - that is when the sh.it hits the fan, and out come the begging bowls once more to keep the clubs alive.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Mar 25, 2015 8:41:22 GMT 1
Because both Brentford and Bournemouth are being bank rolled by people willing to invest millions into the club? Whilst we're not. I think it can be a little misleading looking to other clubs of a similar size to gauge our own success or potential. For the most part it's all down to how much the chaps with the money are willing and able to plough in. Along with Brentford and Bournemouth you can add Rotherham. Posh too. I think the general consensus is that these clubs have managed to make progress up the leagues because of the money their owners have been willing to 'invest' in the club. At the moment we don't have that.And in time they might lose that investment - that is when the sh.it hits the fan, and out come the begging bowls once more to keep the clubs alive. Bournemouth seem to be a dab hand at that from what I recall. I think they've been in financial trouble once or twice already in recent years. Grates a bit to be honest.
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