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Post by MartinB on Feb 27, 2015 12:44:02 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 13:40:53 GMT 1
Yep would agree with that. We know that football fans are not perfect and there will always be a small minority who live up to its past reputation but its come away a long way. However there are still some people who see football fans as scum, you only had to look at the accusations thrown at STFC fans when the new ground was being touted to see how some people view us.
Two events on Saturday showed how we are still viewed and treated by some:
Firstly was on the train to Crewe in the morning, as usual it was packed and there was lots of people standing in the aisles. Yes there was lots of males drinking which at that time of the morning seems a bit alien but there was no aggression, no singing or anything like that, the only indiciation we were football fans was a few people in shirts/scarves. Yet as we were getting off a group of women asked what time we were going back to Shrewsbury, we said it would be much later and some time in the evening, they replied "oh thank god for that, we will be much earlier". Now they said it laughing but at the same time they clearly didnt want to risk travelling back on the same train as us because we were football fans.
The second one was after the game we were walking back to the metro station with plenty of police about, we saw a pub we had been in before the game and a small group of us headed towards there, the police were shouting and telling us to get back. Now we said we were going for a drink and the landlady had told us we were welcome back post match, they told us if we didnt get back walking they would arrest us for breach of the peace. I'm sure there will be some people who would say I had done nothing wrong and should have stood my ground, my view was that had I argued I'd likely have been arrested and being a football fan I'd have been considered to have been in the wrong so why risk it?
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Post by frankwellshrews on Feb 27, 2015 14:35:57 GMT 1
Presumably you missed the confrontation between two large groups of opposing "fans" outside the Sporstman's Arms pub on the way to the station after the game then, Proud Salopian? Think that probably had a lot more to do with the police's attitude than your ethnicity, sporting preference and presumed social standing. Sadly, whilst part of me wants to agree with the above article, it's every bit as 'knee-jerk' as the Guardian counterparts it bemoans. Firstly, how many white, working class males from West London - sorry I'll rephrase that - white, working class males with family ties to West London who've now been pushed out to satellite towns like Slough and Reading can afford to follow Chelsea to Paris for a Champions' League tie? Answer; not many, as this link will testify: www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article4359870.ece£35,000 a year education 'working class'? Bit of a stretch, don't you think? Sad thing is, I'd like to think that the omission of this piece of information from the piece was an oversight but the fact is that it was as widely reported as his affiliation to UKIP was; seems that the author missed it out as it didn't fit in with his agenda. Here's a link to the Premier League fans survey from 07/08: www.premierleague.com/content/dam/premierleague/site-content/News/publications/fan-surveys/national-fan-survey-2007-08.pdfAccording to the stats, since 2002/03 (coincidentally around the same time as English hooligans caused an international diplomatic incident, with then-PM Tony Blair being forced to apologise publically for his compatriots behaviour in Belgium) over 45% of Premier League fans have self identified as Upper Middle Class with the percentage of Skilled Working and Working Subsistence in the 25-30% range. Tellingly, the average salary stats list Chelsea fans at the top, earning an average £50k, with Wigan coming in last at £27k; hardly a fortune by any means, but would still be considered a tidy salary in many parts of the post-industrial Midlands and North. Admittedly, that's now a few years out of date but I very much doubt that the profile of football fans has changed drastically since then (happy to be proved wrong though if anyone fancies digging out the stats. Ironically, courtesy of the £5 billion deal couple with the Premier League and Sky's desire to see full stadia on our screens, it wouldn't at all surprise me if the profile of Premier League fans did revert to a more traditional working class make up as clubs, now less reliant on gate receipts, drop ticket prices to ensure a full house for the cameras, but that's a side issue.) And football violence and racism in grounds? Wasn't Gary Oldman's 'Bexy' character an Estate Agent? I thought the idea of these problems being limited to a single social class had been debunked in both popular culture and real life many years ago. A history teacher went to prison after one of the longest trials in history over the 'Battle of Maze Hill' (link below). Seem to remember it was also a teacher that went down for the notorious Newcastle / Sunderland riot around the same time; www.thejournal.co.uk/news/north-east-news/teacher-jailed-organising-football-hooligans-4653646Still, nice dog whistle for the Torygraph's conservative readership, to add to all the other PC windmills for them to tilt at, Don Quixote-like. Anyway, it is true that Guardianistas like to rail against a mythical "white working class bone headed, lager swilling, coke fuelled, footy thug" as a safe receptacle for their vitriol (whilst grooming their beards, sipping a craft beer and doing whatever the hell it is you do with a man bun). Something of a "straw man", to use a phrase beloved of below the line commenters on that paper's Comment is Free site. I was going to write something about the Guardian's view on football but think that the Fast Show already summed it up much better thank I can in the form of Arsenal fan Ron Nouveau. Here's a link for younger viewers;
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Feb 27, 2015 15:02:23 GMT 1
Thanks for sharing. I mentioned on another thread how surprised I was at the hatred spewed on the Guardian towards football and football fans after that incident in Paris was reported. That article in the Telegraph is very good and needed to be said. Glad someones made the effort to do so. I doubt it'll sell too many papers, mind but good on him.
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Post by pughywasfree on Feb 27, 2015 15:08:58 GMT 1
Watching football isn't a crime.
Every single home game this season the residents of block 19 have had a camera pointed at them by a copper trying to do it on the sly. when was the last time there was any kind of trouble inside the ground?
The issue i have if you treat people like a group of thugs then they are more likely to play up. I group of fans inside a police escort is more volatile than a group of fans just walking to the ground.
How do police not treat us all like thugs whilst still controlling bad behaviour?
None of us would accept being treated as we do at the football in everyday life.
Treating people of different sex, colour, religion etc differently is wrong but Treating someone differently because they like to goto the football is acceptable!?
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Post by thesensationaljt on Feb 27, 2015 15:38:19 GMT 1
I found it a nasty cheap bit of journalism personally. If you wanted to, I've no doubt you could find plenty of stories about Black, Asian, Jewish or Muslim citizens. I wouldn't, but then again, I don't have a political axe to grind.
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Post by davycrockett on Feb 27, 2015 15:44:09 GMT 1
Watching football isn't a crime. I'm not giving my opinion here BUT standing in a designated seated area is at least against the ground rules you agree to when buying a ticket if not a crime. So perhaps that draws attention to those who are prepared to brake the rules and do at time antagonise the oposing supporters and do at times charge down the steps to the front which has caused serious injury to other fans.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 16:22:37 GMT 1
Definition of working class. I am pretty sure that attending Chelsea, Spurs and Arsenal games are far beyond the capabilities of most working class people.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Feb 27, 2015 17:12:50 GMT 1
Anyway, it is true that Guardianistas like to rail against a mythical "white working class bone headed, lager swilling, coke fuelled, footy thug" as a safe receptacle for their vitriol (whilst grooming their beards, sipping a craft beer and doing whatever the hell it is you do with a man bun). Something of a "straw man", to use a phrase beloved of below the line commenters on that paper's Comment is Free site. Yes, we don't want to be stereotyping people do we?
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Post by mattmw on Feb 27, 2015 18:06:55 GMT 1
What I don't get about the article is that the journalist appeared to have witnessed a serious assault, but never reported it to the Police, then bleats on about the case not being reported or acted on.
It's up to decent fans, which make up the vast majority of football fans, to have the courage to report and sideline the small thuggish element that taint the game. There are far fewer of that type about but any fan who goes to games knows it still exists in little pockets, and fans have to play a role in saying they don't accept it anymore and getting those types of thugs out of grounds
That way we might in the future be able to go to away games and drink in opposition pubs without bring treated like criminals.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 18:19:40 GMT 1
I thought it started promisingly, but I stopped reading after “...snobs, champagne socialists and Guardianistas...” because I could see what the article was really about.
Still I suppose it’s nice to see the Torygraph championing the white working class even if it is superficial.
The printed media really is dead on its @rse in this country.
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Post by buryshrew on Feb 27, 2015 19:21:49 GMT 1
I like craft beer. And football. Help, I'm torn. Fight or trim my beard. Any advice?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 19:25:17 GMT 1
I like craft beer. And football. Help, I'm torn. Fight or trim my beard. Any advice? Trim your beard and then fight? Need to look your best like.
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Post by Dale on Feb 27, 2015 19:44:52 GMT 1
Presumably you missed the confrontation between two large groups of opposing "fans" outside the Sporstman's Arms pub on the way to the station after the game then, Proud Salopian? Think that probably had a lot more to do with the police's attitude than your ethnicity, sporting preference and presumed social standing. Was walking back to Rock Ferry station after the game and there were Salop 'lads' on our side of the road and Tranmere 'lads' on the opposite giving it large whilst me and my friends kept our heads down, the Tranmere lads then crossed to our side of the road and one said 'here's your welcoming commitee' whilst pointing to a load of local lads standing out the Sportsmans pub who clearly looked up for it and we had walked right into the middle of it! Thankfully a police van was nearby and segregated the two groups apart.
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Post by Uncle_Monkey on Feb 27, 2015 19:45:00 GMT 1
Presumably you missed the confrontation between two large groups of opposing "fans" outside the Sporstman's Arms pub on the way to the station after the game then, Proud Salopian? Think that probably had a lot more to do with the police's attitude than your ethnicity, sporting preference and presumed social standing. Sadly, whilst part of me wants to agree with the above article, it's every bit as 'knee-jerk' as the Guardian counterparts it bemoans. Firstly, how many white, working class males from West London - sorry I'll rephrase that - white, working class males with family ties to West London who've now been pushed out to satellite towns like Slough and Reading can afford to follow Chelsea to Paris for a Champions' League tie? Answer; not many, as this link will testify: www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article4359870.ece£35,000 a year education 'working class'? Bit of a stretch, don't you think? Sad thing is, I'd like to think that the omission of this piece of information from the piece was an oversight but the fact is that it was as widely reported as his affiliation to UKIP was; seems that the author missed it out as it didn't fit in with his agenda. Here's a link to the Premier League fans survey from 07/08: www.premierleague.com/content/dam/premierleague/site-content/News/publications/fan-surveys/national-fan-survey-2007-08.pdfAccording to the stats, since 2002/03 (coincidentally around the same time as English hooligans caused an international diplomatic incident, with then-PM Tony Blair being forced to apologise publically for his compatriots behaviour in Belgium) over 45% of Premier League fans have self identified as Upper Middle Class with the percentage of Skilled Working and Working Subsistence in the 25-30% range. Tellingly, the average salary stats list Chelsea fans at the top, earning an average £50k, with Wigan coming in last at £27k; hardly a fortune by any means, but would still be considered a tidy salary in many parts of the post-industrial Midlands and North. Admittedly, that's now a few years out of date but I very much doubt that the profile of football fans has changed drastically since then (happy to be proved wrong though if anyone fancies digging out the stats. Ironically, courtesy of the £5 billion deal couple with the Premier League and Sky's desire to see full stadia on our screens, it wouldn't at all surprise me if the profile of Premier League fans did revert to a more traditional working class make up as clubs, now less reliant on gate receipts, drop ticket prices to ensure a full house for the cameras, but that's a side issue.) And football violence and racism in grounds? Wasn't Gary Oldman's 'Bexy' character an Estate Agent? I thought the idea of these problems being limited to a single social class had been debunked in both popular culture and real life many years ago. A history teacher went to prison after one of the longest trials in history over the 'Battle of Maze Hill' (link below). Seem to remember it was also a teacher that went down for the notorious Newcastle / Sunderland riot around the same time; www.thejournal.co.uk/news/north-east-news/teacher-jailed-organising-football-hooligans-4653646Still, nice dog whistle for the Torygraph's conservative readership, to add to all the other PC windmills for them to tilt at, Don Quixote-like. Anyway, it is true that Guardianistas like to rail against a mythical "white working class bone headed, lager swilling, coke fuelled, footy thug" as a safe receptacle for their vitriol (whilst grooming their beards, sipping a craft beer and doing whatever the hell it is you do with a man bun). Something of a "straw man", to use a phrase beloved of below the line commenters on that paper's Comment is Free site. I was going to write something about the Guardian's view on football but think that the Fast Show already summed it up much better thank I can in the form of Arsenal fan Ron Nouveau. Here's a link for younger viewers; absolutely bang on.
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Post by thesensationaljt on Feb 27, 2015 19:51:01 GMT 1
I'll tell you a story about stereo-typing. Last October, we a had a wick in Cyprus. We were lying on the sunbeds. Juan day, two large stocky blokes came to the pool carrying their towels. They had shaven heads, wore black t-shirts, black socks and incredibly large bovver boots. They also wore cut-off camouflage shorts. As they walked past, I noticed written on the back of the shirts, was "Millwall".
Juan lunch-time, they came and sat on the table next to us. I thought they'd have large steaks, but to my surprise, they had salad. Naturally, they would order beer to drink, but no, they asked for water. When they finished their meal, the one guy delicately dabbed at the corner of his mouth with a napkin, and thanked the waitress most profusely when she took his empty plate.
When we were leaving, they were just going out for the day in a hire car. Seeing us stood waiting for our taxi, the Juan bloke came over and wished us a pleasant trip home.
I swear on my Mother's grave this is a true story. I learned my lesson from the time the press got their talons into Martin Allen. They accused him of abusing a doorman at a night club. It turned out to be totally false. So I never trust any newspaper.
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Post by scooter on Feb 27, 2015 21:19:33 GMT 1
Surely the newspaper article is missing one important point in comparing incidents in 2015 to the 1980's and that is the fact that everything can be videod and made public. If he had been able to video the Villa fan being attacked and post it where millions could see it, he would have been able to find out what happened afterwards
as regards policing last week we had the ridiculous situation where some people were stopped from leaving Chester station between trains because they wanted to "keep us all together". Pilch tried explaining that we had walked to Birkenhead station rather than Rock Ferry, on police advice, to avoid trouble and now they wanted to put us with the "troublemakers" (not that any trouble was likely in Chester anyway) Luckily I managed to walk past them and get a pint in the pub cross the road, but others were prevented for no reason.
Some things don't change - for years the Police have a knack of stopping the wrong people (so now they just try and stop everyone) and being in the wrong place when trouble is likely
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Post by shrewsace on Feb 27, 2015 21:21:23 GMT 1
I thought it started promisingly, but I stopped reading after “...snobs, champagne socialists and Guardianistas...” because I could see what the article was really about. Still I suppose it’s nice to see the Torygraph championing the white working class even if it is superficial. Agreed. There's undoubtedly some truth in some of what he writes, but it's a thinly veiled exercise in lefty-bashing rather than any genuine compassion for the working class. He (almost certainly deliberately) draws a false conclusion here: 'it emerged one of the protagonists, Josh Parsons, had previously posed for a selfie with Nigel Farage. The snobs, champagne socialists and Guardianistas went into a state of near-orgasmic piety: this was all the “proof” they needed that all white, working-class football fans are intrinsically racist'.The 'snobs' etc were taking undoubted delight because it could be construed as evidence that UKIP attracts racists like Parsons. Nothing to do with proving white, working class football fans are intrinsically racist. Perhaps Farage will be a bit more careful about who he poses for cheap publicity shots with in future. Is he surgically grafted to that pint glass?
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Feb 27, 2015 21:22:11 GMT 1
So there were some lads there looking for trouble on Saturday? But how many is 'a load'? And what percentage were that against those who attended the game? I think the point of the article is that many people (and there were loads and I mean loads of comments on the Guardian) had each and every English football fan down as an idiot, as a thug (and also one or two comments about the male white football supporter and racist). As an English white male football supporter I was really taken aback by the comments. Real hatred towards the the game and those the follow it. Just sweeping generalizations against anyone who follows the game.
Yes there are dickheads at football. There are dickheads everywhere. The point is not each and every English male football supporter happens to be behave like those dickheads on the Paris metro. Having met many, many football fans (plenty of here) who are good honest decent sorts the narrative and comments from the Guardian just don't add up. And I think that's what this Torygraph article gets at.
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Post by Pilch on Feb 27, 2015 22:53:38 GMT 1
i would like to see football fights legalised sounds outrageous but is it any different to boxing or cage fighting ? i don't mean at the ground or in the streets, at a specific designed venue or colosseum type place ;-) let the fans sign disclaimers waving their rights to life and compensation blow the whistle and let them go until they have had enough there could be proper league tables and any trouble at grounds and the proper hooligans would get fined or have to fight behind closed doors ;-) vote pilch
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Post by sussexshrew on Feb 27, 2015 23:09:09 GMT 1
If that is today's journalism then I shudder. I think his comparing of the brutal beating up of a Villa supporter with the incident in the Paris Metro was to suggest that because of the racial aspect in the latter, it has been blown out of proportion, especially by "Guardianistas". who he clearly hates.
He may have a point. It may also show that things have by and large improved so much that even isolated incidents now are newsworthy.
I agree that nobody was injured in Paris, but it was unpleasant and surely all unpleasant incidents can be condemned, without having to compare one with another.
But for this lament for the vilifying of white working class males to come from the Telegraph is beyond belief. I don't remember the Telegraph standing up for the white working class miners at the "Battle of Orgreave" when Thatcher and McGregor let loose the South Yorkshire Mounted Police upon them, in all their bloody fury.
Then the Telegraph was firmly against working class "scum"... even supporting Thatcher as she described the British Miners as "the enemy within", while she was in Japan... a country which had a history of how to deal with British working class scum.
It was the Telegraph who was her biggest cheerleader as she pursued her destruction of the Working Class; while those pesky "Guardianistas" had the gall to stand up against her.
And then after a reasonable promising start, the article went into a series of bad facts. Such as using Josh Parsons as a martyr of the white working class: he was educated at Millfield School for heaven's sake; he works in the City.
And as for his conclusion that white working class males are the most hated group in Britain. Hardly, not since the Thatcher Government put them in their place.
Immigrants in general are far higher in the charts... and right now, because of the recent actions of too many of the fundamentalist followers of Islam, including today's nauseating hacking to death of the Bangladeshi blogger, Avijit Roy, in Dakha, whose atheistic views were seen as just reason for his killing... it is Muslim males who are the most hated group in Britain. And while they continue to support such atrocities in too greater numbers (a third in a recent poll), even though I really don't want to, and try very hard to find a reason why I shouldn't think it... I have to believe that position is very deserving.
Football fans are way down the list; well behind MPs, Bankers and Telegraph journalists.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 23:26:22 GMT 1
Was it Margeret Thatcher who vilified all Football supporters seeing them as pariahs of the country at the time.and hasn't David Cameron proclaimed to be a Villa supporter along with Prince William ? ''Bloody Scum!!''
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Post by shrewsace on Feb 27, 2015 23:31:10 GMT 1
From Ted Croker's obituary in the Independent: After the Heysel Stadium disaster in Brussels, Thatcher called together a group of football officials and others closely associated with the game and asked what football was going to do about its hooligans.
According to Croker, she seemed ready to have professional football banned altogether. While others timidly kept their opinions to themselves, Croker remarked: 'We don't want this made public, but these people are society's problems and we don't want your hooligans in our sport, prime minister.'www.independent.co.uk/news/people/obituary-ted-croker-1565862.htmlThatcher must have been a Guardianista all along, eh?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 9:00:08 GMT 1
I think the point of the article is that many people (and there were loads and I mean loads of comments on the Guardian) had each and every English football fan down as an idiot, as a thug (and also one or two comments about the male white football supporter and racist). As an English white male football supporter I was really taken aback by the comments. Real hatred towards the the game and those the follow it. Just sweeping generalizations against anyone who follows the game. Football supporters have been vilified from both the ‘left’ and the ‘right’ for decades, it just depends on the current political environment and whose agenda to media are dancing to. This article is a continuation of the spat between the Telegraph and Guardian over HSBC and other issues. Don’t think for one minute that the Telegraph really gives a toss about football supporters.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Feb 28, 2015 13:49:36 GMT 1
I think the point of the article is that many people (and there were loads and I mean loads of comments on the Guardian) had each and every English football fan down as an idiot, as a thug (and also one or two comments about the male white football supporter and racist). As an English white male football supporter I was really taken aback by the comments. Real hatred towards the the game and those the follow it. Just sweeping generalizations against anyone who follows the game. Football supporters have been vilified from both the ‘left’ and the ‘right’ for decades, it just depends on the current political environment and whose agenda to media are dancing to. This article is a continuation of the spat between the Telegraph and Guardian over HSBC and other issues. Don’t think for one minute that the Telegraph really gives a toss about football supporters. I don't. I tend to look at articles like this as the individual author speaking rather than the paper. There have been a couple of comment pieces on the guardian recently pretty much saying these girls who left to join ISIS should be left to do so and we shouldn't really be making any effort to try and stop them. Even though that was published in the Guardian, I wouldn't take that as the papers view on things. And you are right, it might well be a part of this current war of words between the two papers. But even so, for me its good to see someone say what needs to be said to counter the stuff I saw in the Guardian. As in... But most level-headed football fans saw this for what it was: a few meatheads that in no way represent the vast majority of decent fans.
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Post by sussexshrew on Feb 28, 2015 19:23:07 GMT 1
I don't know if it happens in Shrewsbury... but at Smith's at Brighton Railway Station, they do a free bottle of Buxton or Evian mineral water with every Copy of the Telegraph.
Sadly I sacrifice my principals and prostitute myself twice on the Brighton to London Victoria line... reading the Telegraph... and drinking mineral water!!!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 19:57:32 GMT 1
I don't know if it happens in Shrewsbury... but at Smith's at Brighton Railway Station, they do a free bottle of Buxton or Evian mineral water with every Copy of the Telegraph. Sadly I sacrifice my principals and prostitute myself twice on the Brighton to London Victoria line... reading the Telegraph... and drinking mineral water!!! Don't you get a choice of the Times too? Or is that just Wolves' WH Smiths.
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Feb 28, 2015 20:23:14 GMT 1
The contempt for the white working classes shown by the political elite, media and the cultural marxist society Labour forced on us knows no bounds.
A would-be Jihadist flying over to Syria to take part in the inhumane slaughter of fellow human beings is spared proportionate justice under the umbrella of human rights because they've been let down by society and we should be taking responsibility for not doing enough to integrate Muslims into our culture.
A group of football thugs who's biggest crime is shoving a man off a train and chanting juvenile chants are vile racists who will be sent to prison and have the vote taken away from them.
The voice of the self-appointed intelligentsai is disproportionately loud. We see the same cultural marxism being pedalled on here by white, middle-class men trying to lay down the tablet of the law of what should be considered offensive and what isn't. Notable by their absence when a non-working class white person is involved in an act of criminality or 'racism', but of course they never see it that way.
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Post by shrewsace on Mar 1, 2015 16:19:46 GMT 1
The contempt for the white working classes shown by the political elite, media and the cultural marxist society Labour forced on us knows no bounds. What do you mean by cultural marxism and how did Labour force this upon society? Also not sure who you are referring to as the 'political elite'. And are all media oulets guilty of showing contempt to the white working classes or just a certain few? More light, less heat please, I don't quite follow.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 18:24:11 GMT 1
Marxist, Labour?
That’s about the funniest thing I’ve read in a while.
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