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Post by atcham jack on Feb 10, 2015 20:15:07 GMT 1
did anyone see the Panorama prog last night on HSBC allegedly fiddling the taxman and arranging tax evasion for 1000's of rich clients in their Swiss Bank Branch. one alleged culprit was the chairman of Stoke City FC who was besieged by a bbc reporter and has since paid back allegedly evaded back tax. do hope no other football chairmen are involved!
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Post by SeanBroseley on Feb 10, 2015 21:22:16 GMT 1
The UK government's subsidy of major banks is variously estimated at between 40-100 billion pounds. And this excludes the explicit subsidy of retail deposit insurance. It is really about time that the official approach to these businesses treated them like cattle rather than pets.
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Post by venceremos on Feb 10, 2015 21:28:45 GMT 1
I only saw the last half but read a bit more today. Interesting that the average deposit of the 7,000 UK account holders was £3.1 million, while HMRC has so far collected just £135m in back taxes, interest and penalties. Hopefully the enforcement process is continuing and will result in a lot more being collected and some criminal prosecutions. It's legitimate to open an offshore account, as long as you've made any proper disclosure of the source of those funds and declared any income or capital gains you've made on them. Hard to believe that so many of these people have done that - and these are just the HSBC accounts in Switzerland. There are many other banks and many other tax havens. Rather begs the questions - why are tax evaders not pursued and prosecuted in a similar way to benefit cheats, why does HSBC seem to be allowed to get away with saying "we don't do that any more, so everything's ok" and why is there such a deafening silence on such an important topic from Cameron and Osborne? They did mean those words about clamping down on tax evasion, didn't they?
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Post by ssshrew on Feb 10, 2015 22:47:47 GMT 1
Crooks the lot of them as far as I am concerned.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Feb 11, 2015 8:40:11 GMT 1
Don't know that much about it but pretty sure I read that the only arrest they are currently looking to make is the chap who took and shared the information about those looking to avoid paying their tax. Pretty much sums it up for me. A fuss will be made, lip service paid and nothing will change. Labour and the Tories both have left the UK down, I don't consider either of them fit for purpose. The only problem is that there isn't a decent alternative. If there was I think Labour and the Tories vote share would be hit harder than it has been already.
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Post by atcham jack on Feb 11, 2015 8:52:01 GMT 1
This is only HSBC! how many other banks are doing similar? all of them I will wager. suddenly the tax man cometh!
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Post by bordersalopian on Feb 11, 2015 8:54:08 GMT 1
I only saw the last half but read a bit more today. Interesting that the average deposit of the 7,000 UK account holders was £3.1 million, while HMRC has so far collected just £135m in back taxes, interest and penalties. Hopefully the enforcement process is continuing and will result in a lot more being collected and some criminal prosecutions. It's legitimate to open an offshore account, as long as you've made any proper disclosure of the source of those funds and declared any income or capital gains you've made on them. Hard to believe that so many of these people have done that - and these are just the HSBC accounts in Switzerland. There are many other banks and many other tax havens. Rather begs the questions - why are tax evaders not pursued and prosecuted in a similar way to benefit cheats, why does HSBC seem to be allowed to get away with saying "we don't do that any more, so everything's ok" and why is there such a deafening silence on such an important topic from Cameron and Osborne? They did mean those words about clamping down on tax evasion, didn't they? I wonder how many of those who have been involved in evading tax through these means have/are 'donating' funding to either the Conservatives, Labour and/or Lib Dems on the run up to the General Election? Coincedence?
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Post by ssshrew on Feb 11, 2015 9:48:30 GMT 1
Doubt it.
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Post by essofsteel on Feb 11, 2015 11:17:48 GMT 1
People with 2 or more jobs, particularly over 60's on P.A.Y.E have been chased with a vengeance by HMRC for many years. The government money spoken of is actually taxpayers money!
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Post by percy on Feb 11, 2015 11:35:02 GMT 1
This is tax evasion and there needs to be a criminal investigation at HSBC - there is no way that when the new rules came in for disclosure from Swiss accounts in 2005 that it was not discussed and a decision made as to the procedure to follow. Clive Bannister was the CEO of the private bank at the time - he and his famous dad (Roger of 4 minute mile fame) were known to be quite well connected with both Blairite labour and Tory politicians (and both with egos and public personas that would embarrass most politicians).
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Post by SeanBroseley on Feb 12, 2015 23:44:45 GMT 1
People with 2 or more jobs, particularly over 60's on P.A.Y.E have been chased with a vengeance by HMRC for many years. The government money spoken of is actually taxpayers money! No it's government money.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Feb 12, 2015 23:45:59 GMT 1
This is only HSBC! how many other banks are doing similar? all of them I will wager. suddenly the tax man cometh! A relevant point. A Greshams dynamic exists where good behaviour is driven out of the market by bad behviour.
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Post by El Presidente on Feb 13, 2015 21:38:42 GMT 1
This fella gets off scott free... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31459067Yet I made an honest mistake on my very first EVER self assessment, and I get a fine + interest despite me pointing the mistake out to HMRC... All in it together. w****rs.
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Post by Jonah on Feb 13, 2015 23:44:44 GMT 1
I love all this. I just wonder if B&A members become successful enough to contemplate an offer to move some money through what they are told are legitimate channels what their views would be?
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Post by camdenshrew on Feb 14, 2015 8:05:28 GMT 1
It wasn't all legitimate though. The released emails show that HSBC staff knew they were engaged in criminal behaviour. Unfortunately, HMRC lacked the resources and/or willingness to go after those like Paul Bloomfield who should have got a prison sentence.
A woman takes a cleaning job while claiming benefits and ends up in jail. OK, what she did was wrong but does the punishment fit the crime when you see multi-millionaires getting away with blatant tax evasion - which is a far bigger crime in terms of the money it is costing the UK?
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Post by Jonah on Feb 14, 2015 9:21:20 GMT 1
And as I understand it those that have paid back the money to the revenue have done with penalties and interest.
Is that not punishment enough or shall we,waste more time,money and resources to take them through the courts for the same outcome?
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Post by percy on Feb 14, 2015 9:39:54 GMT 1
Tax avoidance - like having an Isa account is perfectly ok, but Milliband seems to be saying that tax avoiders are crooks - they are not. Tax avoiders are operating within the law and are just sensible tax planners. I would imagine that this covers most B&A members.
Tax evaders are breaking the law and shielding income from tax. I doubt this covers any B&A members.
HSBC was facilitating both tax avoiders and evaders - I think he is a muppet in most other areas, but the only one to make this distinction is the UKIP bloke. It is the evaders and not the avoiders (like Lord Fink) who are the problem; why is Milliband intent on a witch hunt against people who have done nothing wrong ?
Ultimately the one at HSBC who should be blamed is Clive Bannister, but his close links with politicians both left and right seem to be saving him.
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Post by mattmw on Feb 14, 2015 10:37:06 GMT 1
Feel a bit sorry for Lord Fink, as it seems he only put the shares he had in a Swiss account to give his children a start in life and to be able to afford to get on the property ladder. People like that deserve a leg up in the world, and shouldn't be asked to pay tax they don't have to, especially as he's only worth £140 million
Luckily we have a Prime minister keen to support people like Fink. Also good to see he is now going after people on sickness benefits as a means of reducing the debt - about time they got hammered.
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Post by essofsteel on Feb 14, 2015 11:44:16 GMT 1
People with 2 or more jobs, particularly over 60's on P.A.Y.E have been chased with a vengeance by HMRC for many years. The government money spoken of is actually taxpayers money! No it's government money. And where does this government money come from?
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Post by ssshrew on Feb 14, 2015 12:52:21 GMT 1
Surely, another point is that a lot of these tax avoiders are 'buddies' of our politicians and many of them fund political parties. Not sure where this leaves our honoured form of democracy?
The lady who gets done for having more than one cleaning job has no such influence.
To me, we will never be able to stop a black economy all the while high profile tax evading goes on. As the less well off would say 'if it's good enough for them ........'
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Post by SeanBroseley on Feb 14, 2015 19:47:24 GMT 1
No it's government money. And where does this government money come from? Key strokes on a computer.
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Post by percy on Feb 14, 2015 20:10:26 GMT 1
Surely, another point is that a lot of these tax avoiders are 'buddies' of our politicians and many of them fund political parties. Not sure where this leaves our honoured form of democracy? The lady who gets done for having more than one cleaning job has no such influence. To me, we will never be able to stop a black economy all the while high profile tax evading goes on. As the less well off would say 'if it's good enough for them ........' Tax avoidance = perfectly ok, within the law, etc. Tax evasion = not ok, illegal, etc. milliband is choosing to mix them up as are you. Why not fine everyone with an Isa account for tax avoidance ?!? BECAUSE IT IS NOT ILLEGAL
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Post by jamo on Feb 14, 2015 20:11:16 GMT 1
Jonah. Defending the indefensible.
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Post by percy on Feb 14, 2015 20:18:09 GMT 1
Jonah. Defending the indefensible. Having money and tax planning is not indefensible ! Do you think that everyone with an ISA account should be investigated / fined ?
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Post by SeanBroseley on Feb 14, 2015 20:27:57 GMT 1
A good proportion of tax planning involves placing money in products/schemes that are designed to exploit loop holes in tax law. That is not a working definition of an ISA.
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Post by mattmw on Feb 14, 2015 20:37:42 GMT 1
Agree with Sean don't think the ISA example is anything like the tax avoidance schemes that have been in the press this week
ISA's are promoted by the government and open to everyone with the aim of encouraging people to save money, with the very small incentive of saving a little tax in the process (and most money invested will already have come from wages which have already paid tax). It's a bit like saying a pension scheme is tax avoidance
Tax avoidance of the type in the press this week is much more complex, and only available to a select through who have the financial resources and connections to make the most of tax laws.
Think its that which undermines the "all in it together" argument the government keeps making. If allowing people to avoid tax is acceptable all forms of it need to be open to everyone
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Post by percy on Feb 14, 2015 20:39:03 GMT 1
A good proportion of tax planning involves placing money in products/schemes that are designed to exploit loop holes in tax law. That is not a working definition of an ISA. ISA is developed specifically as a tax avoidance tool ! There are Many such intentional "loopholes". You imply that there are shady schemes and ways around the tax rules that are unintentional and unknown - mmmm, no there are not. There are many many tax advisors in this country and any such schemes are perfectly out in the open - if a mistake is made in tax law it is a) rare and b) it is a quick and simple decision for HMRC to close the "accidental loophole"; if they don't then it's their decision just like launching an ISAAC and perfectly legal and accepted just like avoiding IHT by investing in forestry or making a PET.
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unclebob
Midland League Division Two
Posts: 128
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Post by unclebob on Feb 14, 2015 20:42:44 GMT 1
This attitude of only paying the tax that you can get away with has its roots in the greed culture of the 1980's. Who was the pm then? It was the one who turned a blind eye to pedophiles wasn't it? The one that sold off all the council housing and created a housing boom that keeps people homeless to this day. The one that lived in a home owned by a company in the virgin islands. What a great leader eh?
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Post by percy on Feb 14, 2015 20:44:35 GMT 1
Agree with Sean don't think the ISA example is anything like the tax avoidance schemes that have been in the press this week ISA's are promoted by the government and open to everyone with the aim of encouraging people to save money, with the very small incentive of saving a little tax in the process (and most money invested will already have come from wages which have already paid tax). It's a bit like saying a pension scheme is tax avoidance Tax avoidance of the type in the press this week is much more complex, and only available to a select through who have the financial resources and connections to make the most of tax laws. Think its that which undermines the "all in it together" argument the government keeps making. If allowing people to avoid tax is acceptable all forms of it need to be open to everyone This I think is the heart of the issue - you are happy with a tax avoidance scheme like ISA which is accessible by all, but one that is open only to those with a certain level of income is not acceptable. Well, we do not live in a socialist paradise where everyone is equal and earns the same whether they are a nurse or an investment banker. There is tax law to make sure that everyone pays their fare whack - stick to the law and you should not suffer this grief. If there is something that you disagree with then its the law that needs to change and not the people who should be vilified for being law abiding citizens.
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Post by percy on Feb 14, 2015 20:50:16 GMT 1
This attitude of only paying the tax that you can get away with has its roots in the greed culture of the 1980's. Who was the pm then? It was the one who turned a blind eye to pedophiles wasn't it? The one that sold off all the council housing and created a housing boom that keeps people homeless to this day. The one that lived in a home owned by a company in the virgin islands. What a great leader eh? Never let facts get in the way of a blinkered view eh ?
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