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Post by Dancin on Nov 12, 2014 13:53:15 GMT 1
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Post by jonbond on Nov 12, 2014 14:29:03 GMT 1
Why would you show remorse if you genuinely believed you were innocent and were still appealing against your sentence ?
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Post by Dancin on Nov 12, 2014 14:33:01 GMT 1
Why would you show remorse if you genuinely believed you were innocent and were still appealing against your sentence ? Totally agree but do you not think until it has gone through the Appeal process he should sit at home playing FIFA 15 and not drag the name of a football club through the mud?
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Post by jonbond on Nov 12, 2014 14:34:57 GMT 1
Not really because he has served his sentence and has a right to earn a living from his profession. Think the mob justice on this issue has gone completely out of control , mainly due to twitter
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Post by venceremos on Nov 12, 2014 14:36:24 GMT 1
He's a convicted rapist who's served his time (whatever may be thought of the sentence). Ex-offenders have to be given a chance to rehabilitate in society. But I've changed my mind on the football aspect. Given the nature of his offence, there are certain professions from which he'd now be excluded and I think pro football should be one of them.
I wouldn't want him to be employed by Shrewsbury Town, so it seems a bit hypocritical to say it would be up to any other club whether or not they signed him. I'm not entirely persuaded by the footballers as role model argument but, as Charlie Webster said on Newsnight, clubs make much of their role in the community and their social responsibilities. Employing a rapist on a high salary in a high profile role flies in the face of that. Sheffield United need to stop dithering (perhaps they're hoping the storm will pass) and make their position clear. But the FA needs to take responsibility too; there should be guidelines to make it clear that certain offences will prohibit anyone committing them from being employed in football.
No broadcasting organisation would employ him for a public-facing role. Nor would the FA. If he was a jobsworth lower league defender he'd never get back in. He's a proven goalscorer though, so the temptation for a club to cynically employ him while dressing it up as giving him another chance is too great. The possibility of that shouldn't exist.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 14:39:03 GMT 1
He's a convicted rapist who's served his time (whatever may be thought of the sentence). Ex-offenders have to be given a chance to rehabilitate in society. But I've changed my mind on the football aspect. Given the nature of his offence, there are certain professions from which he'd now be excluded and I think pro football should be one of them. I wouldn't want him to be employed by Shrewsbury Town, so it seems a bit hypocritical to say it would be up to any other club whether or not they signed him. I'm not entirely persuaded by the footballers as role model argument but, as Charlie Webster said on Newsnight, clubs make much of their role in the community and their social responsibilities. Employing a rapist on a high salary in a high profile role flies in the face of that. Sheffield United need to stop dithering (perhaps they're hoping the storm will pass) and make their position clear. But the FA needs to take responsibility too; there should be guidelines to make it clear that certain offences will prohibit anyone committing them from being employed in football. No broadcasting organisation would employ him for a public-facing role. Nor would the FA. If he was a jobsworth lower league defender he'd never get back in. He's a proven goalscorer though, so the temptation for a club to cynically employ him while dressing it up as giving him another chance is too great. The possibility of that shouldn't exist. Agree with that, good post.
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Post by jonbond on Nov 12, 2014 14:41:43 GMT 1
I didn't see a clamour for marlon king to be banned despite being jailed 3 times for a multitude of offences including sexual assault (twice). Combined he has received more jail time than Evans yet continually gets given another chance
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Post by Dancin on Nov 12, 2014 15:25:22 GMT 1
As he's on the Sex Offenders Register that will stop him from working in the community?
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Post by filmcrewshrew on Nov 12, 2014 16:37:16 GMT 1
He claims she was drunk when they had sex and that's why he thinks he's innocent. b******s! If you get mugged for your wallet whilst your drunk does it mean it's any less if a crime.
What message does it send to footy fans of he can play again and earn the wages he got before, same applies to Lee Hughes tbh. Never thought he should be allowed to play footy again & glad we never signed him.
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Post by Nath on Nov 12, 2014 18:22:03 GMT 1
I think this has been heavily focused on in mainstream news sources and it will no doubt have stressful, traumatic consequences for all parties involved. First of all, the victim of rape must be absolutely horrified at the level of attention and platform that Ched Evans is receiving. Football fans are often fickle and can be extremely offensive/harsh without knowing ANYTHING. I'll draw similar comparisons to my experience. In 2012, Watford striker Troy Deeney decided, with his three friends, to launch an assault on me and two of my friends while we were stood outside of a club. Nothing was said, nobody was provoked... This was proven in court. It was an all out assault resulting stamping on our heads and kicking us when knocked out which in turn resulted in breaking my jaw and putting a hole in my friends face. When reading comments on social media, fans were calling us scum who deliberately targeted Deeney to get attention. We were accused of racism, thuggish behaviour etc all because the legal system denied to release the clear cctv footage. That was the worst part of the whole episode for me, the attention received by football fans who targeted me and my friends although we were the victims.
This case however, is a whole other story. I was merely beaten up. This woman has to deal with the physical effects of rape, and worse, the psychological effects. She must, to put it simply, be having the worst time in the world right now with people trying to defend someone they know nothing about. This point here, what I tried to make from my experience, is the worst part of it. People branding her a crony, a slag etc. Horrific!
Ched Evans must be going through a terrible time with the attention he is receiving and knowing that a majority of people dislike him. However, Ched made his own bed. He has served his time in prison but his continued denial of the charges may be perceived to come down to his lack of remorse/rehabilitation.
Finally, and I can't get my head around this, are Sheffield United. They have brought so much attention onto the club and it most certainly isn't good attention. Their fans will suffer from abuse because of this. Their patron, Charlie Webster today stepped down which is even more bad news for a club already in the line of attack. Without getting into my own political beliefs, I completely agree with what Webster about the role that Evans will have at the club. He doesn't need to work in the community to have an effect. People will celebrate his goals, children will want his autograph. I think Webster will be coming from an angle that football is already a very sexist sport and what kind of message are Sheffield United sending out by doing this...
I think Sheffield United have an opportunity to make a statement here. Rape is a huge problem in the UK and around the globe. If he is just given his job back then what kind of message does that send out to football fans? Marlon King (someone mentioned above) is a prime example of this having repeatedly offending. However, he is a human being and he has served his time. How can you deny someone a job back when they have faced what the legal system has sentenced them with. Football is full of liars, cheats, thugs, rapists etc. That is why it confuses me that so much attention has been given to this individual case. Even Luke McCormmack received less attention than this.
A very lengthy response, I know. However, I was a victim of a footballers assault and I thought that I would share the same problems that I went through to try and help others understand before posting a response that does not take the victim into account. Everyone loves to have and share their opinion, but sometimes you can be causing greater (unintentional) harm than you will know.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 18:23:10 GMT 1
He claims she was drunk when they had sex and that's why he thinks he's innocent. b******s! If you get mugged for your wallet whilst your drunk does it mean it's any less if a crime. What message does it send to footy fans of he can play again and earn the wages he got before, same applies to Lee Hughes tbh. Never thought he should be allowed to play footy again & glad we never signed him. You forgot to add an important piece of information to that, as in his version is they were both drunk and both consented. That is why he thinks he is innocent, she cannot remember if she consented or not!!
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Post by shrewder on Nov 12, 2014 18:38:49 GMT 1
Small point but he has not yet served his sentence as he is out on licence.
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Post by venceremos on Nov 12, 2014 18:41:18 GMT 1
Outstanding post, windsorjnr, very well put.
Shocked to learn of the assault on you and your friends, though others on here might have known of it. Truly sickening. Hope you're all as fully recovered as possible.
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Post by jonbond on Nov 12, 2014 18:42:37 GMT 1
The idea that this rape victim will feel the same as say a rape victim who is attacked in a dark alley at knifepoint is quite frankly ridiculous. As said above this was merely a matter of consent . The 2 footballers insisted they both had consent from the girl . She didn't have a clue , the CPS thought neither had consent , the jury agreed that one had consent but the other didn't . In other words the whole thing is a matter of opinion and a real grey area. Incidentally in most other civilised countries (Germany, France , Italy , USA etc) this wouldn't have even been a rape trial. So I think people need to calm down a bit
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 12, 2014 18:51:46 GMT 1
Too drunk you mean? Yet they recall the situation enough to claim she consented. So they must have know she was p**sed? I can see both sides of this to be honest. Its a difficult one. But if you are taking advantage of someone who is clearly drunk then you really shouldn't be too surprised if it comes back to bite you on the arse.
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Post by venceremos on Nov 12, 2014 18:52:04 GMT 1
The idea that this rape victim will feel the same as say a rape victim who is attacked in a dark alley at knifepoint is quite frankly ridiculous. As said above this was merely a matter of consent . The 2 footballers insisted they both had consent from the girl . She didn't have a clue , the CPS thought neither had consent , the jury agreed that one had consent but the other didn't . In other words the whole thing is a matter of opinion and a real grey area. Incidentally in most other civilised countries (Germany, France , Italy , USA etc) this wouldn't have even been a rape trial. So I think people need to calm down a bit Who's not calm? Why is protesting something a sign of not being calm? I'm curious how you can empathise with how victims of different types of rape will feel. Does that come from experience (genuine question) or imagination? I'm also curious why you imply it's civilised not to bring rape cases to trial. Don't you think rape is always a forced physical violation of another person and therefore always to be taken seriously and investigated thoroughly? If you don't bring alleged cases to trial, how are you going to do that? And how will that encourage victims to come forward if it doesn't seem worth the bother? It's not the victims' fault there are so many cases. It's our collective responsibility that so few result in conviction.
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Post by mattmw on Nov 12, 2014 18:57:23 GMT 1
Good article about this in this months WSC. It points out the verdict of rape was made unanimously by the jury at the case and has already been through one appeal, (funded by Evans girlfriends millionaire father) so what ever opinions are on the case, as it stands Evans is a convicted rapist
Added to this at the time of the case friends and relatives of Evans named the victim and she has subsequently had to move from Sheffield, which has been a big issue in the city
WSC points out the fan base at Sheffield United is very split on the issue and allowing him to come back in the side could prove very divisive and also impact on the community work they do.
Very tricky one as having served his sentence he should be free to resume his life, but the repercussions to him returning to United go deeper than just his employment
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 12, 2014 19:01:08 GMT 1
The idea that this rape victim will feel the same as say a rape victim who is attacked in a dark alley at knifepoint is quite frankly ridiculous. As said above this was merely a matter of consent . The 2 footballers insisted they both had consent from the girl . She didn't have a clue , the CPS thought neither had consent , the jury agreed that one had consent but the other didn't . In other words the whole thing is a matter of opinion and a real grey area. Incidentally in most other civilised countries (Germany, France , Italy , USA etc) this wouldn't have even been a rape trial. So I think people need to calm down a bit Just to clear that up. I believe that one of the lads picked the girl up and she agreed to go to the hotel with him. So the jury considered that may have been evidence of consent. Evans then turned up afterwards at the hotel and had sex with her. That is the reason one was found guilty and the other not. I think anyhows. The circumstances were different.
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Post by jonbond on Nov 12, 2014 19:02:05 GMT 1
She was from Rhyl not Sheffield and the incident took place in Rhyl . You are correct about the twitter outing, but the victim also took to twitter and boasted how she was going to cash in big time
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 19:02:21 GMT 1
Good article about this in this months WSC. It points out the verdict of rape was made unanimously by the jury at the case and has already been through one appeal, (funded by Evans girlfriends millionaire father) so what ever opinions are on the case, as it stands Evans is a convicted rapist Added to this at the time of the case friends and relatives of Evans named the victim and she has subsequently had to move from Sheffield, which has been a big issue in the city WSC points out the fan base at Sheffield United is very split on the issue and allowing him to come back in the side could prove very divisive and also impact on the community work they do. Very tricky one as having served his sentence he should be free to resume his life, but the repercussions to him returning to United go deeper than just his employment Thought she was from Prestatyn??
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 12, 2014 19:04:18 GMT 1
The idea that this rape victim will feel the same as say a rape victim who is attacked in a dark alley at knifepoint is quite frankly ridiculous. As said above this was merely a matter of consent . The 2 footballers insisted they both had consent from the girl . She didn't have a clue , the CPS thought neither had consent , the jury agreed that one had consent but the other didn't . In other words the whole thing is a matter of opinion and a real grey area. Incidentally in most other civilised countries (Germany, France , Italy , USA etc) this wouldn't have even been a rape trial. So I think people need to calm down a bit Honest question. Shouldn't have been a rape trial? What kind of trial should it have been? School teacher was 'enthusiastic participant' in sex...
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Post by mattmw on Nov 12, 2014 19:12:37 GMT 1
Good article about this in this months WSC. It points out the verdict of rape was made unanimously by the jury at the case and has already been through one appeal, (funded by Evans girlfriends millionaire father) so what ever opinions are on the case, as it stands Evans is a convicted rapist Added to this at the time of the case friends and relatives of Evans named the victim and she has subsequently had to move from Sheffield, which has been a big issue in the city WSC points out the fan base at Sheffield United is very split on the issue and allowing him to come back in the side could prove very divisive and also impact on the community work they do. Very tricky one as having served his sentence he should be free to resume his life, but the repercussions to him returning to United go deeper than just his employment Thought she was from Prestatyn?? Quite right the article says her home town, the people who named her were from Sheffield which has caused the tensions in that city.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 20:18:37 GMT 1
Clayton McDonald was also a victim in this saga wasn't he, as he was falsely accused of rape by Ched Evans' victims wasn't he?
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Post by jonbond on Nov 12, 2014 21:54:14 GMT 1
Technically no , because she allegedly couldn't remember anything about the night .
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Post by mattmw on Nov 12, 2014 22:25:20 GMT 1
Clayton McDonald was also a victim in this saga wasn't he, as he was falsely accused of rape by Ched Evans' victims wasn't he? Looking at the case notes and judges summing up the circumstances by which McDonald and Evans came to be with the victim were quite different, which perhaps indicates why two different verdicts were arrived at. As JB says the accusation of rape didn't come from the victim as her evidence purely said she couldn't remember. The rape allegation comes from the Crown prosecution service, based on the evidence collected by them as part of the case
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 22:55:37 GMT 1
Yes, the message I took, is perhaps that the jury believed that the complainant had consented to sex prior to going back to the hotel with McDonald, but then was not in a state to provide consent when back at the hotel.
Which still leaves me scratching my head.
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Post by mattmw on Nov 12, 2014 23:11:16 GMT 1
Yes, the message I took, is perhaps that the jury believed that the complainant had consented to sex prior to going back to the hotel with McDonald, but then was not in a state to provide consent when back at the hotel. Which still leaves me scratching my head. Looking at the judges interpretation of the case he argued it was not about whether the victim gave consent or not, as the evidence established she couldn't remember. The interpretation the judged told the jury to consider was whether McDonald could reasonably have been considered that she gave consent. As she approached him; travelled with him in the taxi and went to the hotel with him the jury looked like they felt he had reasonable grounds that she was consenting. These interactions were also witness by other people. Evans had much less time with the woman and no other witnesses (other than McDonald) came forward to provide evidence of her having spent time with him. Clearly very fine lines between the two accused but interesting to read the actual case notes and judges interpretation of the law not the press reports which provide quite a different angle to the case
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 12, 2014 23:16:41 GMT 1
Yes, the message I took, is perhaps that the jury believed that the complainant had consented to sex prior to going back to the hotel with McDonald, but then was not in a state to provide consent when back at the hotel. Which still leaves me scratching my head. I wouldn't think the jury believed that. I'm not sure the jury believed the lass explicitly gave consent to McDonald. I think consent is assumed because she was happy to get into a taxi and go back to his hotel. That was not the case with Evans who walked in on them when they were in bed and then joined in.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 23:17:53 GMT 1
Ta.
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Post by Catalyst Cartel on Nov 12, 2014 23:26:14 GMT 1
Prestatyn.......Anyone else thought Ched Evans got the wrong idea when he asked where she was from?
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