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Post by Catalyst Cartel on Sept 27, 2014 18:03:51 GMT 1
Gonna be a tight league like last year was at this level
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Post by mattmw on Sept 27, 2014 18:19:23 GMT 1
On the face of it we have a strong bench, but with the exception of the Tranmere game our subs don't really seem to be making much of an impact at the moment
Think it's important we score first in games over the next few weeks as it looks like if we go behind and sides get behind the ball we don't have the ability to break sides down
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Post by callum on Sept 27, 2014 19:12:14 GMT 1
We can't keep using the time to gell excuse, all teams have brought in players. Remember what happened at the end of the season that we last played Chelsea in the cup!!
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Post by champagneprince on Sept 27, 2014 19:13:31 GMT 1
If we're not gelling then we are not really helping ourselves of late by constantly switching formations. I'm all for having a plan B when necessary but what exactly is our plan A and is it good enough? Are we playing too much attention to the opposition rather than concentrating on what works best for our players?
17 players is a staggering amount to bring in for any club and close analysis of what player might gel with another could only have been a 'best guess' rather than anything else. The key thing was to get a squad together and now it's about making them gel.
At the window MM will know what we need rather than what we want. But until then he has to experiment to be absolutely sure that the next buy is going to be spot on for what we need.
The good news is that the 17 players assembled at such short notice don't look like duffers and duds. They all look capable enough IMO and that isn't bad going at all.
As for concentrating on the opposition then of course there is a possibility of that, but maybe that is because MM doesn't quite know yet what are strengths are versus the opposition. A case of limiting their strengths, rather than capitalising ours. Capitalising is much easier if you know what it is to capitalise on. That'll come, it's still early in this season and it's very early in MM's reign.
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Post by bobbydazzler on Sept 28, 2014 6:48:49 GMT 1
Guys n Gals. Hi from a very impressed Shrimper. Don't be too harsh on your team, you are the best team we have seen at the Hall for a very long time. Your number four was in our minds MOM and it was a great game to watch. Irrelevant of the result if our team played like that away from home and lost I would still be proud of them. For sure you will be up there with us come the end of the season
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Post by Exkeeper on Sept 28, 2014 9:23:21 GMT 1
Guys n Gals. Hi from a very impressed Shrimper. Don't be too harsh on your team, you are the best team we have seen at the Hall for a very long time. Your number four was in our minds MOM and it was a great game to watch. Irrelevant of the result if our team played like that away from home and lost I would still be proud of them. For sure you will be up there with us come the end of the season Thanks for that. As usual things seem different after a night's sleep. It seemed a long ride home, sulking about being caught cold early on but looking back we were in the game with a shout until the last kick. Would agree that Woods was man of the match, but thought the ref was trying to get that accolade for himself. He booked five or six Town players for mostly trivial offences but none of the opposition. As for Mangan, he had every right to challenge the keeper for a long through ball and the keeper made a meal of what was no more than a collision.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2014 9:40:35 GMT 1
14 competitive games including wins against opposition from a higher division.
Numerous training sessions and pre - season games. The talk coming out of the Club and from players is of a close group of players who have bonded.
The point is that using the excuse that the team needs to gell only gets us so far in explaining away defeats or poor performances.
It can become an easy excuse.
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Post by ssshrew on Sept 28, 2014 10:10:49 GMT 1
Have to say my main concern is that we have a squad of League 1 and possible lower Championship level but who are finding it difficult in league 2 as tactics and style of football make it hard for them. Do we need a bit more 'muscle' on the pitch to get us out of this league? I don't know perhaps.
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Post by shrimperama on Sept 28, 2014 10:27:21 GMT 1
Your team seemed to have a lot of the ball but very much lacked the quality to puncture our defence which I believe Is the best in the league.
You moved the ball well but when they didn't get rewards you resorted to going long.
It was a tight game and we are delighted to have won with a fantastic header.
Sorry but if you watch the highlights show your player can have no complaints. Yellow card all day long.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2014 11:28:05 GMT 1
14 competitive games including wins against opposition from a higher division. Numerous training sessions and pre - season games. The talk coming out of the Club and from players is of a close group of players who have bonded. The point is that using the excuse that the team needs to gell only gets us so far in explaining away defeats or poor performances. It can become an easy excuse. Yep good point and supported by the fact that we were picking up more points at the start of the season. Rather than needing to gel, I think its a case that we've come unstuck in recent games. Far from being an incompatible partnership in central midfield, I think Woods and Weso have benefited from playing several games together. Perhaps it's time to see the same stability and consistency of selection in other areas of the team, particularly up front as the chopping and changing in personnel and formations doesn't seem to be doing us any good.
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Post by champagneprince on Sept 28, 2014 12:01:53 GMT 1
14 competitive games including wins against opposition from a higher division. Numerous training sessions and pre - season games. The talk coming out of the Club and from players is of a close group of players who have bonded. The point is that using the excuse that the team needs to gell only gets us so far in explaining away defeats or poor performances. It can become an easy excuse.
Of course there can be many reasons why we aren't performing well away from home i.e MM just get's his tactics wrong, the research on the away form isn't good enough etc. But those are factors that affect every team. We have an additional factor, and that is 17 new players! It's a fundamental over-riding factor which needs to be put to bed before we can really look more closely at whether it is something else
At what point would you say a hastily assembled squad of 17 players should gel? Think of yourself starting a new job, how long does it take for you to get to know your colleagues well? How long does it take you to bond with a person or persons if success absolutely depends on whether you do? More than 2 months I would guess. Even rotation in well established squads provides gelling issues.
I say we shouldn't be critical of our performances until after Christmas as I think that would be a reasonable time for a manager to get the players to gel. There can be no excuses then IMO, although I would still argue that many in the game would say a manager should even be given longer than that.
At home we seemed to have gelled pretty well, away from home it seems to be different but the player bonding away from home provides a completely different set of circumstances.
Are there cliques that are exposed more on a long journey? Do some players prefer to be alone? Do some players like to take the p**s on the journey but others want to keep themselves to themselves? If they room share, do they get on with the person they room share with?
There can be many reasons why our poor away form can be attributed to our players still gelling, after all they've only done it 7 times, but I would like to think that by Christmas the players would be much more used to one another. But for now IMO it's a valid reason rather than just an excuse, an overriding reason, and we shouldn't be looking at anything else being the cause.
This journo has it right about us IMO:
www.theguardian.com/football/football-league-blog/2014/aug/05/league-two-2014-15-season-preview
Micky Mellon, Shrewsbury’s manager, says his radically re-shaped side are “good to go” after a manic summer during which he signed 16 new players. The bookies seem to believe this is a recipe for instant promotion on the part of a club only relegated from League One in April. But gelling so many players so quickly will not be easy.
The 42-year-old Scot has a mixed managerial record – although he generally did very well at Fleetwood – but has been given carte blanche to sign virtually an entirely new squad. It could be promotion or bust.
As I said elsewhere, it might get worse yet before it gets better. But at this stage we don't need to look beyond what is the most likeliest reason IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2014 12:32:42 GMT 1
14 competitive games including wins against opposition from a higher division. Numerous training sessions and pre - season games. The talk coming out of the Club and from players is of a close group of players who have bonded. The point is that using the excuse that the team needs to gell only gets us so far in explaining away defeats or poor performances. It can become an easy excuse.
Of course there can be many reasons why we aren't performing well away from home i.e MM just get's his tactics wrong, the research on the away form isn't good enough etc. But those are factors that affect every team. We have an additional factor, and that is 17 new players! It's a fundamental over-riding factor which needs to be put to bed before we can really look more closely at whether it is something else
At what point would you say a hastily assembled squad of 17 players should gel? Think of yourself starting a new job, how long does it take for you to get to know your colleagues well? How long does it take you to bond with a person or persons if success absolutely depends on whether you do? More than 2 months I would guess. Even rotation in well established squads provides gelling issues.
I say we shouldn't be critical of our performances until after Christmas as I think that would be a reasonable time for a manager to get the players to gel. There can be no excuses then IMO, although I would still argue that many in the game would say a manager should even be given longer than that.
At home we seemed to have gelled pretty well, away from home it seems to be different but the player bonding away from home provides a completely different set of circumstances.
Are there cliques that are exposed more on a long journey? Do some players prefer to be alone? Do some players like to take the p**s on the journey but others want to keep themselves to themselves? If they room share, do they get on with the person they room share with?
There can be many reasons why our poor away form can be attributed to our players still gelling, after all they've only done it 7 times, but I would like to think that by Christmas the players would be much more used to one another. But for now IMO it's a valid reason rather than just an excuse, an overriding reason, and we shouldn't be looking at anything else being the cause.
This journo has it right about us IMO:
www.theguardian.com/football/football-league-blog/2014/aug/05/league-two-2014-15-season-preview
Micky Mellon, Shrewsbury’s manager, says his radically re-shaped side are “good to go” after a manic summer during which he signed 16 new players. The bookies seem to believe this is a recipe for instant promotion on the part of a club only relegated from League One in April. But gelling so many players so quickly will not be easy.
The 42-year-old Scot has a mixed managerial record – although he generally did very well at Fleetwood – but has been given carte blanche to sign virtually an entirely new squad. It could be promotion or bust.
As I said elsewhere, it might get worse yet before it gets better. But at this stage we don't need to look beyond what is the most likeliest reason IMO.
The problem with all this though that we are unbeaten at home. If we were near the bottom and struggling then the gelling argument may hold more credence.
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Post by champagneprince on Sept 28, 2014 12:40:27 GMT 1
We may have gelled at home (maybe, still too early to say) but we haven't gelled away ! That's the point.
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Post by MartinB on Sept 28, 2014 12:41:01 GMT 1
Guys n Gals. Hi from a very impressed Shrimper. Don't be too harsh on your team, you are the best team we have seen at the Hall for a very long time. Your number four was in our minds MOM and it was a great game to watch. Irrelevant of the result if our team played like that away from home and lost I would still be proud of them. For sure you will be up there with us come the end of the season Interesting views thanks, probably explains the respect Southend showed us by cleverly wasting time. For me worse performance of the season and thought we were there for the taking. Frustrating how different our home and away performances are
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Post by ssshrew on Sept 28, 2014 13:52:51 GMT 1
14 competitive games including wins against opposition from a higher division. Numerous training sessions and pre - season games. The talk coming out of the Club and from players is of a close group of players who have bonded. The point is that using the excuse that the team needs to gell only gets us so far in explaining away defeats or poor performances. It can become an easy excuse.
Of course there can be many reasons why we aren't performing well away from home i.e MM just get's his tactics wrong, the research on the away form isn't good enough etc. But those are factors that affect every team. We have an additional factor, and that is 17 new players! It's a fundamental over-riding factor which needs to be put to bed before we can really look more closely at whether it is something else
At what point would you say a hastily assembled squad of 17 players should gel? Think of yourself starting a new job, how long does it take for you to get to know your colleagues well? How long does it take you to bond with a person or persons if success absolutely depends on whether you do? More than 2 months I would guess. Even rotation in well established squads provides gelling issues.
I say we shouldn't be critical of our performances until after Christmas as I think that would be a reasonable time for a manager to get the players to gel. There can be no excuses then IMO, although I would still argue that many in the game would say a manager should even be given longer than that.
At home we seemed to have gelled pretty well, away from home it seems to be different but the player bonding away from home provides a completely different set of circumstances.
Are there cliques that are exposed more on a long journey? Do some players prefer to be alone? Do some players like to take the p**s on the journey but others want to keep themselves to themselves? If they room share, do they get on with the person they room share with?
There can be many reasons why our poor away form can be attributed to our players still gelling, after all they've only done it 7 times, but I would like to think that by Christmas the players would be much more used to one another. But for now IMO it's a valid reason rather than just an excuse, an overriding reason, and we shouldn't be looking at anything else being the cause.
This journo has it right about us IMO:
www.theguardian.com/football/football-league-blog/2014/aug/05/league-two-2014-15-season-preview
Micky Mellon, Shrewsbury’s manager, says his radically re-shaped side are “good to go” after a manic summer during which he signed 16 new players. The bookies seem to believe this is a recipe for instant promotion on the part of a club only relegated from League One in April. But gelling so many players so quickly will not be easy.
The 42-year-old Scot has a mixed managerial record – although he generally did very well at Fleetwood – but has been given carte blanche to sign virtually an entirely new squad. It could be promotion or bust.
As I said elsewhere, it might get worse yet before it gets better. But at this stage we don't need to look beyond what is the most likeliest reason IMO.
What an excellent post. Ever since I have been supporting (early 1990s) our away form when coupled with a stay away has been pretty awful in fact it's a standing joke! The suggestions you make as to why hit the nail on the head for me.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2014 15:58:34 GMT 1
We may have gelled at home (maybe, still too early to say) but we haven't gelled away ! That's the point. That has nothing to do will gelling, but everything to do with attitude, strength of character and mentality.
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Post by champagneprince on Sept 28, 2014 16:31:31 GMT 1
You can have the strongest character in the world but if it doesn't fit in with your team then it doesn't work. Football is a team game, you need characters that can be gelled together and MM has only had a limited amount of time to recruit them and to see whether the players he has can actually play as a team.
It has everything to do with gelling.
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Post by Exkeeper on Sept 28, 2014 18:22:04 GMT 1
We may have gelled at home (maybe, still too early to say) but we haven't gelled away ! That's the point. That has nothing to do will gelling, but everything to do with attitude, strength of character and mentality. I would add team selection to that. When playing at home Gayle is used as a wing back and I think that going forward is his strength . Away from home he is called on more to do the defensive side of full back play, and I believe that this is where he struggles. To a lesser extent the same could be said of Micky D, as evidenced by being skinned a few times early on, one leading to the goal. It may be that we should use 3-5-2 at home but change it to 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 away but we need to find an out and out right back to make it work.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2014 18:32:49 GMT 1
That has nothing to do will gelling, but everything to do with attitude, strength of character and mentality. I would add team selection to that. When playing at home Gayle is used as a wing back and I think that going forward is his strength . Away from home he is called on more to do the defensive side of full back play, and I believe that this is where he struggles. To a lesser extent the same could be said of Micky D, as evidenced by being skinned a few times early on, one leading to the goal. It may be that we should use 3-5-2 at home but change it to 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 away but we need to find an out and out right back to make it work. Good point, with what we've got at present would you say that Grandison has played himself into the position of first choice right back, even though it may not be his preferred position?
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pkd
Midland League Division One
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Post by pkd on Sept 28, 2014 18:36:43 GMT 1
Defensive Organisation
If we're going to continue using 5-3-2, then the defence needs to sort out each of their individual jobs, and not sit too deep.
4 times in the first half Sarfend crossed from the right wing to the far post and on to their left winger's head. From one he scored, from another (flagged offside) he hit the post, the other two required point blank saves from Jayson.
First of all, Demetriou should be getting tighter to the crosser. When we have 5 defenders he's got NK-P as a back-up, so he can worry less about getting beaten.
Secondly Goldson and Gayle should know exactly whose responsibility it is to deal with the winger coming in to the far post. Similarly with NK-P and Demetriou for crosses from the left.
I'm sure MM will be drumming the lessons in this week.
Going Forward
Just a glance at Sarfend's massive central defenders & huge goalkeeper would tell you that high balls into the box are unlikely to be a winning formula, and yet we resorted to that very tactic. As we proved earlier in the game, keep the ball shifting around the floor and those defenders look less like giants and more like clumsy giraffes.
And, at the risk of sounding like a scratched record, we seldom attack with width and even more rarely get to the byeline. We shouldn't be relying on Grandison when playing as a cavalier right-back to be our only threat from wide.
Ryan Woods
I feel it's unfair to expect him to be our main attacking creator. His role is clearly defined in the holding role, and he does it superbly. The likes of Clark, Vincent, Laurence, Mangan & Caton should be doing the slicing and dicing. Woods does the preparation work and passes it on to them.
Overall
Don't despair! I'm still confident we'll come good.
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pkd
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Post by pkd on Sept 28, 2014 18:40:02 GMT 1
Sorry, but Demetriou was not skinned for their goal. He was sitting too deep and not closing their wide man down.
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Post by champagneprince on Sept 28, 2014 18:46:16 GMT 1
I would add team selection to that. When playing at home Gayle is used as a wing back and I think that going forward is his strength . Away from home he is called on more to do the defensive side of full back play, and I believe that this is where he struggles. To a lesser extent the same could be said of Micky D, as evidenced by being skinned a few times early on, one leading to the goal. It may be that we should use 3-5-2 at home but change it to 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 away but we need to find an out and out right back to make it work.
Team selection is still about getting the team to gel !
MM will be trying different players for different circumstances because he doesn't know them that well yet (and shouldn't be expected to, it's too soon). Who knows what MM has to think about when he's picking his time. Not only does he has to think about the 'normal process' of picking a team versus the opposition he is facing but also has to think about how the team he picks is likely to perform together. It's a best guess, rather than anything with any history behind it. Once he knows more through experimentation then the process of selection will be more straightforward.
He is also still in the process of understanding how players react when they are left out of the team and how this impacts on the whole squad.
All this is the 'gelling/cohesion' process and is something that will weigh heavily on current tactics of the type highlighted by Exkeeper above.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2014 19:54:43 GMT 1
It has everything to do with gelling. Only away from home it seems.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2014 20:27:23 GMT 1
Football is a game of small margins - personally I don't feel our home and away performances (one or two aside) have been that different overall but we have scored at key times in our home games and not done the same away from home.
That said an away win soon is becoming hugely important as a poor run could turn into a real confidence issue for the squad and then it will be hard to turn around.
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Post by Exkeeper on Sept 29, 2014 11:33:43 GMT 1
I would add team selection to that. When playing at home Gayle is used as a wing back and I think that going forward is his strength . Away from home he is called on more to do the defensive side of full back play, and I believe that this is where he struggles. To a lesser extent the same could be said of Micky D, as evidenced by being skinned a few times early on, one leading to the goal. It may be that we should use 3-5-2 at home but change it to 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 away but we need to find an out and out right back to make it work. Good point, with what we've got at present would you say that Grandison has played himself into the position of first choice right back, even though it may not be his preferred position? That may be the case Paul but JG is also better as an attacking wing back than a defensive full back, which is fair enough as he is primarily a centre back.
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