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Post by El Presidente on Sept 21, 2014 9:20:16 GMT 1
I agree it should be dealt with. And if it was reported to a constable at the scene, and you were told to 'move along' you have a very good case for dereliction of duty against the force. Call them up, lodge a complaint, give all the details including time of incident and the collar number of the officer reported to, and if they try to fob you off, get the collar number of the call taker and take your complaint to the forces professional standard department; or complain to the IPCC. If it was witnessed by a police officer it doesn't need a complaint when it is a public order offence as you well know. That officer should deal with it.! Spitting on someone is an assault. Looking at it as a section 5 public order offence, never heard of it - I find it difficult to see a person of reasonable firmness beig harassed, alarmed or distressed by this - in the eyes of a custody sgt or magistrate. Disgusted, yes. Even were you to take that route, there may well have been reasons why no action was taken. If the victim had spoken to the old bill, these reasons may have been made clear. But I wasn't there so I don't know. I still think it should be followed up or otherwise all that happens is people b***h about the issue here, but nothing ever changes on the ground.
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Post by floreatsalopia1 on Sept 21, 2014 9:34:24 GMT 1
If it was witnessed by a police officer it doesn't need a complaint when it is a public order offence as you well know. That officer should deal with it.! Spitting on someone is an assault. Looking at it as a section 5 public order offence, never heard of it - I find it difficult to see a person of reasonable firmness beig harassed, alarmed or distressed by this - in the eyes of a custody sgt or magistrate. Disgusted, yes. Even were you to take that route, there may well have been reasons why no action was taken. If the victim had spoken to the old bill, these reasons may have been made clear. But I wasn't there so I don't know. I still think it should be followed up or otherwise all that happens is people b***h about the issue here, but nothing ever changes on the ground. "That you have used threatening, abusive, or insulting words or behaviour towards another person" sec4 I would picture the whole behaviour as clearly abusive behaviour and does not need a complaint. ! It maybe assault but what officer would wait for someone to put there hand up and say excuse me officer i would like to make a complaint. The trouble is different rules are applied for fans at football matches rather than the ordinary person in the street. If the same thing happened in the street i doubt the Police when standing round in numbers would let it go by without dealing with it.
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Post by El Presidente on Sept 21, 2014 10:06:33 GMT 1
Spitting on someone is an assault. Looking at it as a section 5 public order offence, never heard of it - I find it difficult to see a person of reasonable firmness beig harassed, alarmed or distressed by this - in the eyes of a custody sgt or magistrate. Disgusted, yes. Even were you to take that route, there may well have been reasons why no action was taken. If the victim had spoken to the old bill, these reasons may have been made clear. But I wasn't there so I don't know. I still think it should be followed up or otherwise all that happens is people b***h about the issue here, but nothing ever changes on the ground. "That you have used threatening, abusive, or insulting words or behaviour towards another person" sec4 I would picture the whole behaviour as clearly abusive behaviour and does not need a complaint. ! It maybe assault but what officer would wait for someone to put there hand up and say excuse me officer i would like to make a complaint. The trouble is different rules are applied for fans at football matches rather than the ordinary person in the street. If the same thing happened in the street i doubt the Police when standing round in numbers would let it go by without dealing with it. with intent to cause that person to believe immediate unlawful violence will be used against him or another....The violence has already occurred, therefore the offence against the person (assault) being the higher offence, takes precedent. Trust me, nicking someone for Sect 5, 4 or 4A for spitting, the charge will not stick. You will need to either arrest immediately for assault, or gather evidence of assault. And remember, the prosecution has to prove an offence was committed, so without a victim you will need witnesses. It's not insurmountable. But it helps massively if victims make formal complaints. Perhaps what we need is a fans police liaison rep?
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Post by davycrockett on Sept 21, 2014 10:44:29 GMT 1
There must have been 50 plus police behind the away end after the game in what's a segregated area yet the Newport fans are allowed to then join the Shrewsbury fans and walk in the Meole Brace direction. There's always scuffles or worse around the Island and towards The Brooklands - these went on for an hour yesterday - yet the police are never ready for them and always have to be deployed to react to them!
Simple really, there wont be trouble behind the away end so deploy the police along Otley Road, Meole Island and the Brooklands.
Or just keep the away supporters in the stands until home fans have left as WE WIL BE KEPT IN AT NEWPORT
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Post by davycrockett on Sept 21, 2014 10:47:51 GMT 1
"That you have used threatening, abusive, or insulting words or behaviour towards another person" sec4 I would picture the whole behaviour as clearly abusive behaviour and does not need a complaint. ! It maybe assault but what officer would wait for someone to put there hand up and say excuse me officer i would like to make a complaint. The trouble is different rules are applied for fans at football matches rather than the ordinary person in the street. If the same thing happened in the street i doubt the Police when standing round in numbers would let it go by without dealing with it. with intent to cause that person to believe immediate unlawful violence will be used against him or another....The violence has already occurred, therefore the offence against the person (assault) being the higher offence, takes precedent. Trust me, nicking someone for Sect 5, 4 or 4A for spitting, the charge will not stick. You will need to either arrest immediately for assault, or gather evidence of assault. And remember, the prosecution has to prove an offence was committed, so without a victim you will need witnesses. It's not insurmountable. But it helps massively if victims make formal complaints. Perhaps what we need is a fans police liaison rep? The area's covered by CCTV will that do m'lord ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 10:50:42 GMT 1
Two examples of police intelligence yesterday (and I use the term loosely)
Firstly, was letting the Newport fans leave the ground and come charging over towards the walkway at the back of the West Stand, its always nice to have loads of blokes spitting at you
Secondly was seeing a line of police outside the Brooklands preventing Newport fans from coming in, the Newport fans walked on past, stopped and then came back, not surprisingly this stealth movement was too much for the police and they would have got in the pub had it not been for the bouncers stopping them.
When the police come out with the "zero tolerance" cr@p in the media then you would have thought they could get the basics right
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Post by callum on Sept 21, 2014 11:31:02 GMT 1
Total waste of time and money the police, if you were doing 33mph in a thirty or had a brake light out they'd be all over you, but when theres a chance they will get hassle back they don't want to know.
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Post by champagneprince on Sept 21, 2014 13:30:06 GMT 1
All that's needed really is another fence at the end of the away stand. This would do a number of things
1. Provide a 'buffer zone' between the fans 2. Prevent away fans from approaching people on Super Blues way 3. Provide safe access to the Power League bar after the game 4. Provide a manageable zone where the Police can pull people out and release the hounds on them
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Post by El Presidente on Sept 21, 2014 16:27:21 GMT 1
Total waste of time and money the police, if you were doing 33mph in a thirty or had a brake light out they'd be all over you, but when theres a chance they will get hassle back they don't want to know. All that's missing from your post is FACT. What do you propose we replace the police with?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 16:37:19 GMT 1
What is poor is when the police allow 40 odd Newport fans after the match head up the Roman Road instead of down Hereford Road towards the Town Centre! I would have thought they would at the least send them in the right direction toward the Town Centre to get to the Station, rather than stand in their numbers at the Brooklands like gormless lemons!
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Post by chirkshrew on Sept 21, 2014 19:32:48 GMT 1
To be honest, after the game I never saw one newport fan,and I parked the car in the brooklands.plenty of police there but no newport fans.there was 2 buses there before the game,but they must of picked there fans up after the game outside the stadium ----- a good idea in my opinion
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Post by El Presidente on Sept 21, 2014 19:40:27 GMT 1
with intent to cause that person to believe immediate unlawful violence will be used against him or another....The violence has already occurred, therefore the offence against the person (assault) being the higher offence, takes precedent. Trust me, nicking someone for Sect 5, 4 or 4A for spitting, the charge will not stick. You will need to either arrest immediately for assault, or gather evidence of assault. And remember, the prosecution has to prove an offence was committed, so without a victim you will need witnesses. It's not insurmountable. But it helps massively if victims make formal complaints. Perhaps what we need is a fans police liaison rep? The area's covered by CCTV will that do m'lord ? Getting into the weeds now. CCTV evidence would add weight if it showed anything of significance. However, it's very rarely clear cut unless its being live operated, the operator has captured the incident in sufficient detail, and the quality is good enough to be presented in court. There may be enough in it for the clubs to ID the offenders in order to issue warnings or banning letters, if there is insufficient evidence for a criminal prosecution. But to re-iterate, a complaint is ALWAYS massively helpful when trying to stop incidents of this nature from happening again.
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Post by El Presidente on Sept 21, 2014 19:51:22 GMT 1
What is poor is when the police allow 40 odd Newport fans after the match head up the Roman Road instead of down Hereford Road towards the Town Centre! I would have thought they would at the least send them in the right direction toward the Town Centre to get to the Station, rather than stand in their numbers at the Brooklands like gormless lemons!
Another post commenting on an incident seen in isolation. Perhaps there was a sound tactical decision not to allow that group into town? Either way, I'm a bit fed up playing devils advocate in threads like this. The same themes come round time and again. That being, certain fans expectations not being met; sufficient upset to vent about it on B&A; but, for some bizarre reason, not enough wherewithal for them to actually do anything about it. Laptop provided a valuable link between the fans and the police before he retired. That link needs to be re-established. This would be in the best interests of the fans, the Club and the po-po. I will write a letter to STFC and West Mercia about this very issue and ask them to comment. I have been largely unaffected by violence from others at football matches, or ambivalence from the police at football matches. I would heartily encourage those who have been less fortunate to grab a bag of nuts and do something about your negative experiences! If only to make things better for the future.
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Post by callum on Sept 21, 2014 20:09:11 GMT 1
Total waste of time and money the police, if you were doing 33mph in a thirty or had a brake light out they'd be all over you, but when theres a chance they will get hassle back they don't want to know. All that's missing from your post is FACT. What do you propose we replace the police with? The FACT is i had a speeding fine for doing 33mph.Is this sufficient for you? But if i'd have spat in someones face yesterday they wouldn't of batted an eyelid. Did i mention replacing them?? Just said they are a waste of time. Are you a policeman? As you seem to be defending them to the hilt, all this make a complaint, they stood watching it happen yesterday and did nothing why would they bother with a complaint now.
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Post by El Presidente on Sept 21, 2014 20:38:59 GMT 1
All that's missing from your post is FACT. What do you propose we replace the police with? The FACT is i had a speeding fine for doing 33mph.Is this sufficient for you? But if i'd have spat in someones face yesterday they wouldn't of batted an eyelid. Did i mention replacing them?? Just said they are a waste of time. Are you a policeman? As you seem to be defending them to the hilt, all this make a complaint, they stood watching it happen yesterday and did nothing why would they bother with a complaint now. You're right Callum, why would they bother investigating an offence if the victim was so unconcerned about it he simply walked off and shot his load out on an internet message board. Why are you so upset for getting a speeding fine, for speeding? Seems you just have an axe to grind. The speed limits are limits; if you get busted it is your fault. And no, I'm not a policeman - not sure why it matters to you. I'm an ex-policeman. One who has no sympathy for people who commit motoring offences, having myself pulled a number of corpses from wrecked cars, dealt with screaming injured victims of drink drivers and speeders, and consoled a young child whose leg was de-gloved and nearly removed by the incompetence of her school bus driver who pinned her against a wall with his bus. I've also dealt with my fair share of rape victims, drunks knocking seven bells out of each other, burglars and street robbers - the victims of whom were generally very co-operative, appreciative and supportive of my actions to bring the offenders to justice. But of course, average Joe public rarely make the connection that police officers deal with all manner of situations in the course of their duty; or have such little respect as to even consider how complex the role of a police constable is. All they see is the one incident or situation which matters to them. Take a broader view. I count myself lucky never to have been asked to specialise in public order training or the policing of football matches as this appears to be one of the most contentious areas of policing I have ever encountered. More so when your victims do not even wish to co-operate. How the dick do you expect things to improve if you simply fail to take action, in the face of inaction?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 20:49:27 GMT 1
What is poor is when the police allow 40 odd Newport fans after the match head up the Roman Road instead of down Hereford Road towards the Town Centre! I would have thought they would at the least send them in the right direction toward the Town Centre to get to the Station, rather than stand in their numbers at the Brooklands like gormless lemons!
Perhaps there was a sound tactical decision not to allow that group into town? Really........ Surely the police would have escorted those fans if they felt there was a problem!
as it was, they seemed decent enough football fans and I sent them in the right direction from the Roman Road roundabout down Longden Road and told them to turn right at the Spar across Greyfriars ....... if there was any trouble down there it must have been my fault
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Post by champagneprince on Sept 21, 2014 20:57:09 GMT 1
When people knock the police I always ask them a very simple question:
"What would it be like without them ?"
Never fails.
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Post by eggyshrew on Sept 21, 2014 23:39:17 GMT 1
When people knock the police I always ask them a very simple question: "What would it be like without them ?" Never fails. May be very true but the point is about what they failed to do yesterday and by firing Q like that it just gets the back up folk when all they want is someone to do their job correct. Raising a complaint its a farce that will get you nowhere going on experience with the police in the past they stick to their own story of events! not all but most.
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Post by El Presidente on Sept 22, 2014 7:38:38 GMT 1
When people knock the police I always ask them a very simple question: "What would it be like without them ?" Never fails. May be very true but the point is about what they failed to do yesterday and by firing Q like that it just gets the back up folk when all they want is someone to do their job correct. Raising a complaint its a farce that will get you nowhere going on experience with the police in the past they stick to their own story of events! not all but most. Trouble is eggy, you gain nothing by moaning here. If you have the time and energy to moan about a situation, at least moan to the people who let you down. The stays quo will never be changed without pressure.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 12:19:56 GMT 1
May be very true but the point is about what they failed to do yesterday and by firing Q like that it just gets the back up folk when all they want is someone to do their job correct. Raising a complaint its a farce that will get you nowhere going on experience with the police in the past they stick to their own story of events! not all but most. Trouble is eggy, you gain nothing by moaning here. If you have the time and energy to moan about a situation, at least moan to the people who let you down. The stays quo will never be changed without pressure. You are right of course but there is a perception that its a waste of time because it will just get swept under the carpet. Yes its a defeatist depressing attitude but its understandable. A few years ago I was on a train coming back from a game, lots of football supporters from different clubs, there wasnt a hint of trouble but for some reason the police came in, were aggressive and heavy handed, the end result was lots of angry football fans and arrests were made. A friend of mine made a complaint about the officers actions that night, it was investigated but they were found to have done nothing wrong, something many on that train would have disagreed with. I was speaking to my dad last night, he witnessed Newport 'fans' attacking Shrewsbury fans after the game on Oteley Road with no police in sight, the trouble continued until some police were visible, plenty of people were telling them their was fighting and they needed to get involved, they seemed reluctant to do anything at first so were getting lots of people telling them they werent doing their job properly (in a nice manner of course!), the officer's response was "if your not happy, make a complaint". Of course people should make a complaint but when they hear stories like Ive mentioned above then they think what is the point?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 13:07:20 GMT 1
Perhaps there was a sound tactical decision not to allow that group into town? Really........ Surely the police would have escorted those fans if they felt there was a problem!
as it was, they seemed decent enough football fans and I sent them in the right direction from the Roman Road roundabout down Longden Road and told them to turn right at the Spar across Greyfriars ....... if there was any trouble down there it must have been my fault
Right at the spar ay? Were they going to the Masonic?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 13:16:36 GMT 1
Really........ Surely the police would have escorted those fans if they felt there was a problem!
as it was, they seemed decent enough football fans and I sent them in the right direction from the Roman Road roundabout down Longden Road and told them to turn right at the Spar across Greyfriars ....... if there was any trouble down there it must have been my fault
Right at the spar ay? Were they going to the Masonic? whoops I might have said left? ? but I did say over the footbridge, they will have worked out though .....wont they? ??
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Post by ssshrew on Sept 22, 2014 19:40:17 GMT 1
It seems to me that, if as stated somewhere on this thread, some of the police came from Warwickshire and only knew they were coming the day before,mould they even know the intricate geography of the ground or even Shrewsbury to be able to make decisions on which way to direct the fans!!!
I must admit in my innocence and lack of experience of policing, I would expect them to step in immediately if someone was being spat at or anything else to be honest. The comment to 'make a complaint' would seem to me just an excuse for not doing anything at the time knowing that the odds would be that no-one would complain as they wouldn't know who the culprit was. I Do understand that the police can't be everywhere but surely they should be keeping an eye on the safety of law abiding citizens as well as trouble makers.
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Post by callum on Sept 22, 2014 20:28:08 GMT 1
The FACT is i had a speeding fine for doing 33mph.Is this sufficient for you? But if i'd have spat in someones face yesterday they wouldn't of batted an eyelid. Did i mention replacing them?? Just said they are a waste of time. Are you a policeman? As you seem to be defending them to the hilt, all this make a complaint, they stood watching it happen yesterday and did nothing why would they bother with a complaint now. You're right Callum, why would they bother investigating an offence if the victim was so unconcerned about it he simply walked off and shot his load out on an internet message board. Why are you so upset for getting a speeding fine, for speeding? Seems you just have an axe to grind. The speed limits are limits; if you get busted it is your fault. And no, I'm not a policeman - not sure why it matters to you. I'm an ex-policeman. One who has no sympathy for people who commit motoring offences, having myself pulled a number of corpses from wrecked cars, dealt with screaming injured victims of drink drivers and speeders, and consoled a young child whose leg was de-gloved and nearly removed by the incompetence of her school bus driver who pinned her against a wall with his bus. I've also dealt with my fair share of rape victims, drunks knocking seven bells out of each other, burglars and street robbers - the victims of whom were generally very co-operative, appreciative and supportive of my actions to bring the offenders to justice. But of course, average Joe public rarely make the connection that police officers deal with all manner of situations in the course of their duty; or have such little respect as to even consider how complex the role of a police constable is. All they see is the one incident or situation which matters to them. Take a broader view. I count myself lucky never to have been asked to specialise in public order training or the policing of football matches as this appears to be one of the most contentious areas of policing I have ever encountered. More so when your victims do not even wish to co-operate. How the dick do you expect things to improve if you simply fail to take action, in the face of inaction? Yes why would they bother investigating a complaint when they witnessed first hand the incident but did nothing? I'm hardly upset over the speeding fine, merely stating that i was 3 mph over the limit and they appear from no where yet they could witness me spitting in someones face and do nothing. I'm sure you'd agree thats not right. It also doesn't matter to me that your an ex policeman, not in the slightest.
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Post by El Presidente on Oct 16, 2014 15:39:49 GMT 1
Total waste of time and money the police, if you were doing 33mph in a thirty or had a brake light out they'd be all over you, but when theres a chance they will get hassle back they don't want to know. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-29643047
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 12:29:35 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 13:30:30 GMT 1
Look like being a costly kettling operation by West Mercia's finest!
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