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Post by jamo on Sept 10, 2014 19:06:39 GMT 1
The more I see the three main parties in this country promising the earth to Scotland to beg them to stay in the UK the more I hope they vote for independence. I don't want to fund Scotland's disproportionate spend per head, which is the highest in the UK, nor do I accept that Scotland is any more devolved from Westminster's interests than parts of the north, and parts of London which are equally as impoverished. Salmond's socialist government will tax the middle classes out of Scotland in this warped belief that Scotland is some self-dependent land with infinite energy resources like Norway or Qatar. Have they really had it that bad? A Scottish socialist Labour prime minister was in power less than four years ago. If they don't want to be part of team, lets not stand in their way. You don't fund the spend per head. The source of the government's spending power isn't taxation. You're wasting your time there Sean. Ask him one about The French Resistance !
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 10, 2014 19:19:56 GMT 1
You don't fund the spend per head. The source of the government's spending power isn't taxation. You're wasting your time there Sean. Ask him one about The French Resistance ! Ask him about the club ignoring the fans and refusing to change the badge Then suggest having a 'celebratory drink' as though he played some crucial part in it. Creasing.
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Post by Matster on Sept 10, 2014 19:26:42 GMT 1
Do we want the DevoMax that's been rushed out if it is a No vote? Sounds like it could cost us dearly, perhaps we should welcome a yes vote. I was always hoping for a No, but am beginning to think a "yes, now go" is a preferable choice.
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Post by jamo on Sept 10, 2014 19:35:06 GMT 1
Do we want the DevoMax that's been rushed out if it is a No vote? Sounds like it could cost us dearly, perhaps we should welcome a yes vote. I was always hoping for a No, but am beginning to think a "yes, now go" is a preferable choice. Think you may be right. From a purely English perspective the closer to the vote and the more desperate Westminster gets in offering inducements to vote No the worse it looks for us.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2014 20:16:49 GMT 1
Do we want the DevoMax that's been rushed out if it is a No vote? Sounds like it could cost us dearly, perhaps we should welcome a yes vote. I was always hoping for a No, but am beginning to think a "yes, now go" is a preferable choice. Think you may be right. From a purely English perspective the closer to the vote and the more desperate Westminster gets in offering inducements to vote No the worse it looks for us. They don’t have to follow through with the promises though. How many times have people in power promised the earth, but delivered the fertilizer instead. The arrival of the three stooges today has probably swayed the ‘don’t knows’ to ‘Yes’ because it does look desperate, but most of all it looked patronising. If I wasn’t sure I’d be voting yes now. Whatever the result the referendum will hopefully inspire more engagement with politics down here.
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Post by champagneprince on Sept 10, 2014 21:32:45 GMT 1
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Post by Matster on Sept 10, 2014 22:34:03 GMT 1
It might mean the end to labour and lib dems as separate parties , as losing Scottish seats in the remaining UK parliament would mean a more definite control by the Tory ukip party. We might well end up as a two horse liblab - ConUkip election battle in future elections.
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Post by venceremos on Sept 10, 2014 22:53:35 GMT 1
To be fair to Chamberlain I think he knew exactly what was coming, what he did was buy us an invaluable 12 months. What was the alternative? Indeed. Chamberlain was informed by the Imperial Chiefs of Staff that Britain was unable to wage war on three fronts. Europe, the Med and Far East. Appeasement was driven by a desire and need to defend empire . I take your point but, regardless of historical accuracy, Chamberlain's misfortune is that he's remembered generally as the leader who didn't stand up to Hitler. The contrast in public perception with the wartime leadership of Churchill probably further undermines Chamberlain's reputation. It might be unfair and inaccurate but politics is frequently both those things. Cameron might cite all sorts of good reasons why it happened but, if the vote goes against him, those details won't count for much and all that will be remembered is that he was the unionist leader who lost the union. That would overshadow every other aspect of his leadership and any "achievements" he might claim.
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Post by venceremos on Sept 10, 2014 23:05:46 GMT 1
I would sincerely hope nobody would vote "yes" merely because they feel patronised by British politicial leaders campaigning in Scotland.
Unusually, I agree with Cameron that it's not about the "f***ing Tories" or the next 5 years. It's a far more profound question than that and shouldn't be trivialised by the noise and froth of today's politics. That said, the voters interviewed on TV seem too sensible to be swayed by such things.
If the government's now panicking and offering a lot to persuade voters to say "no" then I'm quite happy with that. It would be a precedent for greater devolution in future, not just in Scotland but in Wales and the English regions. I'd be strongly in favour.
A big concern with the vote looking so close in Scotland is that almost half the voters are going to be left very disappointed by the outcome. Whichever way it goes, that could be a problem.
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Post by shrewder on Sept 11, 2014 6:26:31 GMT 1
If the Royal Bank of Scotland have decided to move their headquarters to London if the vote is yes, then that should send out alarm bells that perhaps a yes vote is probably not the best thing for Scotland.
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Post by venceremos on Sept 11, 2014 11:36:58 GMT 1
... because the RBS has such a fine track record as a well run business making consistently good decisions?
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Post by atcham jack on Sept 11, 2014 13:03:58 GMT 1
I fear the no vote is ebbing, after parachuting 3 desperate leaders in yesterday, I believe the 16 and 17yr olds may cause a close upset next week.
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Post by mattmw on Sept 11, 2014 16:42:44 GMT 1
... because the RBS has such a fine track record as a well run business making consistently good decisions? Yes there is a debate to be had round how sustainable an economy is based on the banking sector and their financial practices, which have been known to be a little lax in recent years Sure it would hit the Scottish economy in the short term but with the cash from oil, an educated population and access to European markets they could potentially end up with a more rounded economy than the remaining UK
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2014 17:49:05 GMT 1
Indeed. Chamberlain was informed by the Imperial Chiefs of Staff that Britain was unable to wage war on three fronts. Europe, the Med and Far East. Appeasement was driven by a desire and need to defend empire . I take your point but, regardless of historical accuracy, Chamberlain's misfortune is that he's remembered generally as the leader who didn't stand up to Hitler. The contrast in public perception with the wartime leadership of Churchill probably further undermines Chamberlain's reputation. It might be unfair and inaccurate but politics is frequently both those things. Cameron might cite all sorts of good reasons why it happened but, if the vote goes against him, those details won't count for much and all that will be remembered is that he was the unionist leader who lost the union. That would overshadow every other aspect of his leadership and any "achievements" he might claim. Yes I see what you mean now. History will judge Cameron, like it judges Chamberlain. And as with appeasement there will be several interpretations.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Sept 12, 2014 0:09:32 GMT 1
Great news for Scotland that Lloyds and RBS are considering headquartering in England if there is a Yes vote as it takes that potential liability off their balance sheet.
It is also conclusive proof that The banking sector is determined to retain the implicit subsidy of a UK government's willingness to socialise the sector's losses.
As it happens there will be a no vote and a yes vote wouldn't bring independence because Scotland want to keep the pound, or failing that - and even worse - peg their currency to its value.
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trevh
Midland League Division Two
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt
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Post by trevh on Sept 12, 2014 2:54:18 GMT 1
One undisputed result of a Yes vote in Scotland would be the loss of Ashton Memorial's status as the heart of the UK. According to Ordnance Survey, without Scotland the new centre of the UK would be a village in Shropshire. Step forward Shawbury! Your time may be close
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Sept 12, 2014 8:57:59 GMT 1
I think the headlines of late would suggest it's getting closer but I think most peoples money is on a No vote.
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Post by Hatfieldshrew on Sept 13, 2014 15:27:14 GMT 1
Great news for Scotland that Lloyds and RBS are considering headquartering in England if there is a Yes vote as it takes that potential liability off their balance sheet. It is also conclusive proof that The banking sector is determined to retain the implicit subsidy of a UK government's willingness to socialise the sector's losses. As it happens there will be a no vote and a yes vote wouldn't bring independence because Scotland want to keep the pound, or failing that - and even worse - peg their currency to its value. Seeing as Both banks are owned, or the majority of shares are owen by the British pulic. which means Westminster. That was hardly a supprise that has come out. Total political call. This whole thing is a total mess up by Cameron, the scots wanted more devolution to shut them up, thinking that they'd never get more than 20% of a vote. Now it's total panic. If the Scots vote yes they'll keep the pound as Westminster does not want an unstable economy next to them, They showed that when they bailed out Eire a few years ago, dispite the resent history between the 2 countries.
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Post by staffordshrew on Sept 13, 2014 18:54:20 GMT 1
Surprised we haven't heard from the Royal Mail. A yes vote would mean that they could split off all those out of the way addresses and charge more to send letters to Scotland, whoever delivers them. BT, electric, etc. might also want Scottish subsiduaries that charged more.
As for the currency, the Ireland model uses the Euro, that would be ideal. Can see Ireland being a model for a lot of the changes if Scotland vote yes.
Interesting to hear the Scottish yes campaign discussing not having Trident nuclear deterent - not keen on it myself, but it's very crafty politics to not pay for it but still be able to shelter under our umbrella.
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Post by MetaShrew on Sept 15, 2014 21:27:59 GMT 1
But should Spotland be an independent country?
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Post by SeanBroseley on Sept 15, 2014 21:46:37 GMT 1
That's the first time I have seen the words "Ireland", "the euro" and "ideal" in the same sentence since 2007.
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Post by staffordshrew on Sept 15, 2014 22:30:34 GMT 1
That's the first time I have seen the words "Ireland", "the euro" and "ideal" in the same sentence since 2007. Well, yes, ideal for England. An independent Stotland would get what it deserves.
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Post by shrewder on Sept 16, 2014 6:48:55 GMT 1
This could be a case of the grass is always greener. Feel a yes vote would be a big mistake. Also you have to ask yourself, if you lived in Scotland and you were happy with your current everyday life, why on earth would you want to vote yes and potentially upset the apple cart?
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Post by atcham jack on Sept 16, 2014 8:44:19 GMT 1
I am no longer a tory supporter, but I watched David Cameron's speech yesterday, it was powerful and passionate and probably the speech of his life. if anything it may produce a narrow no vote but the result may be too close to call.
the Scots are a canny lot and may vote short term against Nhs privatisation, Bedroom tax and rich tax rebate. I do hope a majority take the long view, but many older scots will not forget the poll tax being experimented on them. The Tories are hated up there, and none too popular down here.
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