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Post by ceejay75 on Sept 4, 2014 21:42:13 GMT 1
Scots living outside Scotland can't vote. Sir Sean of Connery will be most peeved off about that then
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Post by thesensationaljt on Sept 4, 2014 22:27:33 GMT 1
I'll be honest, I couldn't care less if the Scots go it alone or not, but if they do decide to go for independence, if they think I'm going to dance around to " donald where's yer troosers" on New Years Eve, they've got another thing coming.
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Post by markglasgow on Sept 4, 2014 22:39:05 GMT 1
No maybes about it. You clearly have got no idea what drives the YES campaign. It may be soothing to believe that there is no plan or logic and that the Scot's are chasing nothing but a romantic notion, but again you are demonstrating your lack of understanding of political scenario. Some would suggest that there is a pattern developing here. Exactly what part of the argument have I missed? That Scotland want to be independent because they feel Westminster gives them a raw deal. Is that wrong? I'm certainly under the impression that I'm not but if you know any different then pray tell then old boy. Until then you offer little more rationale than Salmand and his braveheart boys, and you're mentality of 'sending 'em back home' only unites you with the UKIP voting 'little Englanders' you want to distant yourselves from so much. You have missed the most crucial part unfortunately. The vast majority of YES voters will do so to allow the future of Scotland to be taken into it's own hands. It's a very simple premise which you seem to be unable or unwilling to grasp. Again you persist on belittling the debate with your 'Braveheart' quip. Predictable and frankly embarrassing. Not sure where UKIP come into the equation? They are not part of the Scottish political scene.
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Post by jamo on Sept 4, 2014 22:49:59 GMT 1
Exactly what part of the argument have I missed? That Scotland want to be independent because they feel Westminster gives them a raw deal. Is that wrong? I'm certainly under the impression that I'm not but if you know any different then pray tell then old boy. Until then you offer little more rationale than Salmand and his braveheart boys, and you're mentality of 'sending 'em back home' only unites you with the UKIP voting 'little Englanders' you want to distant yourselves from so much. You have missed the most crucial part unfortunately. The vast majority of YES voters will do so to allow the future of Scotland to be taken into it's own hands. It's a very simple premise which you seem to be unable or unwilling to grasp. Again you persist on belittling the debate with your 'Braveheart' quip. Predictable and frankly embarrassing. Not sure where UKIP come into the equation? They are not part of the Scottish political scene.
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 4, 2014 22:54:21 GMT 1
So you've basically reworded what I said and I'm apparently the one unable to grasp it?
Interesting logic.
I'm sure you have your reasons for voting Yes, do you still reside in Scotland? Genuine question
You have been quite vocal in your opposition to UKIP on here previously so I'm a bit bemused as to how a party who want to allow for the future of their country to be `taken into its own hands` - as you put it, are any different from a party that wants the same for the UK?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 13:14:12 GMT 1
Not sure how you deduce that from the subtext but in reality Salmond just pushing through the Mandate that triggered the referendum in the first place. Salmond divides opinion in Scotland. Indeed some would argue that his mere presence harms the YES campaign. Ok, but that’s a large step from single handily reshaping politics in Scotland. There is no subtext in the article. It’s pretty clear that Scots feel disenfranchised, disillusioned and economically disadvantaged when compared to the rest of the UK (England). These problems are exacerbated during times of economic uncertainty and slow recovery. Popularist separatist sentiment was evident around Europe during the 70s oil crisis and subsequent economic downturn. It was dampened by the boom of the 80s - to be left to a hard core like Salmond. Disillusionment with central government is something we all feel. Scots have the SNP, the English have UKIP and hopefully the Greens. Decade’s long disengagement with the political mainstream, particularly with the move of Labour to a centrist position offers no viable alternative to centre – right policies and the free market. As the article suggests the Scots are broadly left leaning. In other words decade's long external and internal tensions drive political change. The SNP in the shape of Salmond merely facilitate it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 14:22:41 GMT 1
It's not just about reshaping Politics but who gets to choose those policies and governs Scotland.
A Rail Union has Voted YES so that means there are could be Labour supporters wanting to Govern itself.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2014 8:44:58 GMT 1
Here's a thought, I always assumed that the UK and Germany were the only nett contributors to the EU budget, therefore if the UK becomes a smaller economy without the Scots then surely our contribution to the EU should be reduced accordingly? Would our resident Economist care to comment?
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Post by markglasgow on Sept 6, 2014 13:00:06 GMT 1
So you've basically reworded what I said and I'm apparently the one unable to grasp it? Interesting logic. I'm sure you have your reasons for voting Yes, do you still reside in Scotland? Genuine question You have been quite vocal in your opposition to UKIP on here previously so I'm a bit bemused as to how a party who want to allow for the future of their country to be `taken into its own hands` - as you put it, are any different from a party that wants the same for the UK? No need to twist anything you have said. If you want to retract please feel free. Now, according to you the SNP and UKIP share the same policies? Interesting point of view.
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 6, 2014 15:29:22 GMT 1
So you've basically reworded what I said and I'm apparently the one unable to grasp it? Interesting logic. I'm sure you have your reasons for voting Yes, do you still reside in Scotland? Genuine question You have been quite vocal in your opposition to UKIP on here previously so I'm a bit bemused as to how a party who want to allow for the future of their country to be `taken into its own hands` - as you put it, are any different from a party that wants the same for the UK? No need to twist anything you have said. If you want to retract please feel free. Now, according to you the SNP and UKIP share the same policies? Interesting point of view. Nope, I said they shared the same end goal. Want to enlighten me any further, or are you just going to keep rewording what I've said and dodge the questions I've asked? Making it up as you go along. Could be a good slogan for the Yes campaign that.
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Post by atcham jack on Sept 9, 2014 18:23:43 GMT 1
allegedly one poll puts yes 51 no 49. Scots totally p**sed off with being governed from Westminster. if Scots vote yes we will be lumbered with a permanent tory government.
if Scots vote yes, it will take years to negotiate as current gov. do not have the authority to negotiate. no guarantee Snp will be voted in next time, so result could be overturned. HM the Queen has already removed an Australian pm. Salmond could be next.
personally I think the Scots may vote no 54% yes 46%. never forget the Virgin Sturgeon needs no urging!
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Post by mattmw on Sept 9, 2014 22:23:32 GMT 1
I'm not totally sure allowing Gordon Brown to lead the fight back on behalf of the yes campaign, and to send three English Toffs to ask Scotland to preserve the Union is quite going to have the impact they hoped for
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 9, 2014 22:30:22 GMT 1
The more I see the three main parties in this country promising the earth to Scotland to beg them to stay in the UK the more I hope they vote for independence.
I don't want to fund Scotland's disproportionate spend per head, which is the highest in the UK, nor do I accept that Scotland is any more devolved from Westminster's interests than parts of the north, and parts of London which are equally as impoverished.
Salmond's socialist government will tax the middle classes out of Scotland in this warped belief that Scotland is some self-dependent land with infinite energy resources like Norway or Qatar.
Have they really had it that bad?
A Scottish socialist Labour prime minister was in power less than four years ago.
If they don't want to be part of team, lets not stand in their way.
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Post by thesensationaljt on Sept 9, 2014 22:38:43 GMT 1
Being serious, (unusual for me), I've had a great relationship with Scots, I even named my son after a Scottish friend. (Danny ). We really enjoyed our stay up there, got an excellent welcome, and even have another one planned. but after watching the news over the last couple of days, although I haven't got a vote, if I did, I'd vote YES. If life is so good outside the UK, off you go, goodbye, close the door behind you. Don't wait for me to beg you to stay, you're no more important than the rest of us.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Sept 9, 2014 22:59:32 GMT 1
The more I see the three main parties in this country promising the earth to Scotland to beg them to stay in the UK the more I hope they vote for independence. I don't want to fund Scotland's disproportionate spend per head, which is the highest in the UK, nor do I accept that Scotland is any more devolved from Westminster's interests than parts of the north, and parts of London which are equally as impoverished. Salmond's socialist government will tax the middle classes out of Scotland in this warped belief that Scotland is some self-dependent land with infinite energy resources like Norway or Qatar. Have they really had it that bad? A Scottish socialist Labour prime minister was in power less than four years ago. If they don't want to be part of team, lets not stand in their way. You don't fund the spend per head. The source of the government's spending power isn't taxation.
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Post by mattmw on Sept 9, 2014 23:04:10 GMT 1
Newsnight have just had John Redwood and George Galloway on campaigning for a no vote. Number Ten tried to raise a Scottish flag over Number Ten and it fell down. Cameron is trying to appeal to Scottish voters to stay by writing in the Daily Mail.
Not been a great day for the no campaign
I'm sticking a tenner on Scotland being independent by next Friday
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Post by thesensationaljt on Sept 9, 2014 23:11:13 GMT 1
Newsnight have just had John Redwood and George Galloway on campaigning for a no vote. Number Ten tried to raise a Scottish flag over Number Ten and it fell down. Cameron is trying to appeal to Scottish voters to stay by writing in the Daily Mail. Not been a great day for the no campaign I'm sticking a tenner on Scotland being independent by next Friday I hope you're right. I'm campaigning for it now.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Sept 10, 2014 8:26:30 GMT 1
Not been a great day for the no campaign Has there ever been one? It's been so half arsed its laughable the 'No' campaign. They clearly thought it was in the bag from the off. Now with this latest poll it's panic stations. The people of Scotland must be looking on in bewilderment. They should go for and good luck to them. The gap between richest and poorest in the UK is already one of the widest in the developed world. And it just continues to widen through the economic policies of successive UK governments. Benefiting only the rich. Who knows if it'll be different for Scotland after independence but I doubt it will ever change if their continued to be apart of the UK. They should take this chance to try and make a better future for themselves. Why anyone would wish to stay tied to Westminster if the chance was there to break from it is beyond me.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2014 8:56:09 GMT 1
Not been a great day for the no campaign Has there ever been one? It's been so half arsed its laughable the 'No' campaign. They clearly thought it was in the bag from the off. Now with this latest poll it's panic stations. The people of Scotland must be looking on in bewilderment. They should go for and good luck to them. The gap between richest and poorest in the UK is already one of the widest in the developed world. And it just continues to widen through the economic policies of successive UK governments. Benefiting only the rich. Who knows if it'll be different for Scotland after independence but I doubt it will ever change if their continued to be apart of the UK. They should take this chance to try and make a better future for themselves. Why anyone would wish to stay tied to Westminster if the chance was there to break from it is beyond me. I would agree with you but the problem is it leaves the rest of us in the lurch. We'll have Tory governments from now until forever without the Scottish constituencies included. It's alright for you, you don't live here anymore!!
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Post by mattmw on Sept 10, 2014 9:25:20 GMT 1
No campaign just gets better and better - John Major has waded in now. The only Conservative leader never to win a Scottish seat begging Scotland to stay!
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Post by siabod on Sept 10, 2014 10:38:44 GMT 1
Not been a great day for the no campaign Has there ever been one? It's been so half arsed its laughable the 'No' campaign. They clearly thought it was in the bag from the off. Now with this latest poll it's panic stations. The people of Scotland must be looking on in bewilderment. They should go for and good luck to them. The gap between richest and poorest in the UK is already one of the widest in the developed world. And it just continues to widen through the economic policies of successive UK governments. Benefiting only the rich. Who knows if it'll be different for Scotland after independence but I doubt it will ever change if their continued to be apart of the UK. They should take this chance to try and make a better future for themselves. Why anyone would wish to stay tied to Westminster if the chance was there to break from it is beyond me. Perhaps the jobs provided at Rosyth would be one reason, I would expect future contracts to go elsewhere if it is a yes vote.
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Post by Amsterdammer on Sept 10, 2014 12:22:45 GMT 1
No campaign just gets better and better - John Major has waded in now. The only Conservative leader never to win a Scottish seat begging Scotland to stay! It says something about how bad UK politicians are that it's even come this far. every word by a no politician seems to persuade more to vote yes. Salmons also smartly turning things around by referring to Team Westminster. Hopefully Scots can see through the agenda of Murdoch on this. If he helps a yes vote gets through, the Scots parliament will become as corrupted as Westminster.
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 10, 2014 12:50:32 GMT 1
Without Scotland's votes Blair wouldn't have secured an overall majority in 2005.
Swings and roundabouts,
They might claim that the current government isn't the one they voted for but it hasn't always been that way.
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petshrew
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Post by petshrew on Sept 10, 2014 13:02:16 GMT 1
If I was a Scotsman I would vote yes, if only to get away from the completely unfair system sustained by a continuous right wing government (I include Labour in that). How people in England manage is beyond me. In Wales we have free parking at hospitals, no prescription charges, assistance for university places etc etc. as opposed to the English system of charges for everything and decreasing services. It seems to me that the Tories are determined to set up a system of haves and have nots, the continuation of a class system where the "boys" get all the decent jobs etc whilst the poor don't have a dogs. I hope the Scots do vote yes to encourage Wales to do the same thing. Nothing against the English, just want to get away from a Tory dominated system. Read that again it doesn't make sense! Are you implying the welsh and the scots who get everything for free are the have nots whereas the english who have to pay for everything are the haves? ?? It does scan, however, to explain, I believe that in England the class system is being supported by right wing governments ie it depends on what tie you wear to get into a top ministerial/civil service job. It hardly matters how suitable you are, it is biased toward your class. People who go through the state education system, no matter how much more suitable, have to work much harder to get anywhere. Gawd help the poorer classes!
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Sept 10, 2014 13:20:51 GMT 1
No campaign just gets better and better - John Major has waded in now. The only Conservative leader never to win a Scottish seat begging Scotland to stay! It says something about how bad UK politicians are that it's even come this far. every word by a no politician seems to persuade more to vote yes. Salmons also smartly turning things around by referring to Team Westminster. Hopefully Scots can see through the agenda of Murdoch on this. If he helps a yes vote gets through, the Scots parliament will become as corrupted as Westminster. It does kinda suggest just how detached Scotland is from Westminster. Which does kinda suggest why independence makes sense.
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Post by venceremos on Sept 10, 2014 13:47:26 GMT 1
No campaign just gets better and better - John Major has waded in now. The only Conservative leader never to win a Scottish seat begging Scotland to stay! On the other hand, Major is one of very few senior Tories with the intelligence to recognise that the ever-widening gap between the wealthy few and the not-so-wealthy many is unsustainable and beginning to damage this country profoundly and permanently. There's clearly (and understandably) a panic that the "yes" campaign might win. I don't know how Westminster leaders heading to Scotland will help the "no" vote but then again they can hardly stand by and do nothing. Cameron is running scared of being the Conservative & Unionist Party leader who lost the union. His reputation will be destroyed if he is - to be regarded forever as one of the national leaders who got it disastrously wrong, like Chamberlain with Munich or Eden with Suez.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2014 15:56:06 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2014 15:58:14 GMT 1
To be fair to Chamberlain I think he knew exactly what was coming, what he did was buy us an invaluable 12 months. What was the alternative?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2014 18:27:02 GMT 1
To be fair to Chamberlain I think he knew exactly what was coming, what he did was buy us an invaluable 12 months. What was the alternative? Indeed. Chamberlain was informed by the Imperial Chiefs of Staff that Britain was unable to wage war on three fronts. Europe, the Med and Far East. Appeasement was driven by a desire and need to defend empire .
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2014 18:58:46 GMT 1
The more I see the three main parties in this country promising the earth to Scotland to beg them to stay in the UK the more I hope they vote for independence. I don't want to fund Scotland's disproportionate spend per head, which is the highest in the UK, nor do I accept that Scotland is any more devolved from Westminster's interests than parts of the north, and parts of London which are equally as impoverished. Salmond's socialist government will tax the middle classes out of Scotland in this warped belief that Scotland is some self-dependent land with infinite energy resources like Norway or Qatar. Have they really had it that bad? A Scottish socialist Labour prime minister was in power less than four years ago. If they don't want to be part of team, lets not stand in their way. There's a difference between socialism and Social Democracy.
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