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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 18:24:08 GMT 1
Nick, if you look at the countries that are in there can be little doubt that an independent Scotland will be admitted - I agree that it may take some time though. The big worry for Scots should be the way Salmond is cosying up to the Chinese who are busy buying up natural resources all over the world. If they're not careful the Scots will find their masters are in Beijing instead of London. Also I think Barroso has a political motive given the number of separatist pressures in Spain. The separatists’ pressures in Spain have been around a lot longer than any ‘modern’ idea of a truly independent Scotland. The pressures in Spain are a result of many complex reason’s, early decolonisation, civil war, economic downturn and Franco with his ultra – centralised state. Barroso should understand the difference in relationships and is dealing with pragmatic realities. Does the EU want another potential economic basket case on its hands? And aren’t the Chinese investing everywhere.
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Post by markglasgow on Sept 3, 2014 18:32:23 GMT 1
I can't see how you could vote yes given all the uncertainty over currency and what happens if the EU turn round and say get lost. Seeing as Salmond has no plan other than it will be ok I would have no faith in him. Yes there would be positives but that negative far outweighs it for me. Will be an interesting vote either way. There are no certainties in politics Mr B. Promises are broken and friends betrayed on a daily basis. Lots of questions on matters such as the currency and EU which cannot be answered until the vote decides our position. To suggest that Alex Salmond has no plan or policies is a pretty naive opinion which perhaps can only be expected from folks viewing from afar. Salmond should not be underestimated. He has virtually reshaped the political landscape in Scotland single-handed. To wrestle power from a Labour stronghold and govern confidently with the powers he has at his disposal is no mean feat.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 18:42:01 GMT 1
Just think you would have no UKIP if you vote yes. What would they do? You'd be out of the EU initially and out of the UK. SIP!! have you got one with this name? SIP from UK they'd be SIP from EU?
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Post by mattmw on Sept 3, 2014 19:22:31 GMT 1
Went to a talk on Scottish Independence at Glastonbury (yes I know I'm very sad)
The issue of Scotland gaining Independence leading to a permanent Conservative majority in England and Wales was talked about and might not be quite the done deal it first seems.
Certainly in the short term the Conservatives would benefit but the likelihood is you would also have a left leaning government in Scotland, which if successful would provide a power base for Labour and other left of centre parties to work from and show their policies worked.
An independent Scotland would also lead to more calls for more regional powers in England and Wales, and less power for WestMinster and the possibility of regional assemblies, which again might not be naturally won by the Conservatives.
Of course the flip side is if Scotland goes Independent and it all goes tits up there is also the possibility the Conservatives could start to win more Scottish seats again and even lead a vote to return Scotland to the Union.
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Post by albionshrew on Sept 3, 2014 19:30:12 GMT 1
Ideally and paradoxically, I would prefer a united GB. However, given the Scots hatred for England I would vote to get rid of Scotland from the UK. I would also send the Scots living here (England, Wales and N.Ireland) back up north too (we would not go back more than 3 generations to be fair). The 700K currently lucky enough to live here can pay an annual residency fee to return to the rest of the UK if they wish - but they could not vote or qualify for benefits. When the Scots need military protection they can ask Iceland to help them out. We'll have our nuclear subs back and create jobs for UK citizens. They will need to find an alternative to our currency too. Unfortunately we shall lose MM… but he can have an extended stay until the end of the season.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 22:12:43 GMT 1
Military protection will not be as required by an independent Scotland as it will be separate from the UK Governments role in the Middle East. Anyway the UK is part of NATO an American led alliance, would they leave Scotland out if it wished to join? Ireland doesn't seem to attract much threat from outside terrorism perhaps not being in NATO or the UK is the reason?
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Post by albionshrew on Sept 3, 2014 22:34:51 GMT 1
Ireland is already full of terrorists….
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 22:43:19 GMT 1
Ireland is already full of terrorists…. Prick.
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Post by albionshrew on Sept 3, 2014 23:10:00 GMT 1
Freedom fighters? er… Sinn Féin
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Post by SeanBroseley on Sept 3, 2014 23:47:32 GMT 1
No chance of a yes vote but the substantial minority vote in favour of independence will change the relationship between Scotland and the rest of the union.
I think Salmon went for this vote too soon and has also been weak on the currency. To be independent Scotland needs its own currency which it alone issues and, similarly must not peg its value to that of another currency.
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Post by shrewinjapan on Sept 3, 2014 23:53:31 GMT 1
No chance of a yes vote but the substantial minority vote in favour of independence will change the relationship between Scotland and the rest of the union. I think Salmon went for this vote too soon and has also been weak on the currency. To be independent Scotland needs its own currency which it alone issues and, similarly must not peg its value to that of another currency. They want/need to enter the EU though, don't they? Pretty sure it is a condition of membership that new members adopt the Euro - something the yes campaign didn't seem to give any answer to other than some fudge about not being considered new members.
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Post by markglasgow on Sept 4, 2014 7:49:05 GMT 1
Ideally and paradoxically, I would prefer a united GB. However, given the Scots hatred for England I would vote to get rid of Scotland from the UK. I would also send the Scots living here (England, Wales and N.Ireland) back up north too (we would not go back more than 3 generations to be fair). The 700K currently lucky enough to live here can pay an annual residency fee to return to the rest of the UK if they wish - but they could not vote or qualify for benefits. When the Scots need military protection they can ask Iceland to help them out. We'll have our nuclear subs back and create jobs for UK citizens. They will need to find an alternative to our currency too. Unfortunately we shall lose MM… but he can have an extended stay until the end of the season. I assume your 'send em back' sentiments extends beyond the Scots? Incredible.
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Post by atcham jack on Sept 4, 2014 8:36:32 GMT 1
if Scotland voted yes, there would be in House of Commons 82 fewer labour MP's and 10 less libdems, 8 less snp and a permanent tory government. vote wisely up there. 53% no 47% yes hopefully.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 9:29:48 GMT 1
Aye ''send um back'' should they take all their inventions back add a massive tax or fee for the use of them or take a cut on all the profits made by non-Scottish companies on it's products? Just think some on here would be ****ed without TV or the Internet an off shoot of the Telephone.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 9:37:45 GMT 1
Freedom fighters? er… Sinn Féin If were going to genarlise a whole population. What should I assume your sexuality must be as your location is Brighton? And what is the meaning of the word Albion ?
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Post by neilsalop on Sept 4, 2014 9:55:41 GMT 1
Freedom fighters? er… Sinn Féin If were going to genarlise a whole population. What should I assume your sexuality must be as your location is Brighton? And what is the meaning of the word Albion ---- -----? Might I suggest a subtle editing of your post? BTW name calling really isn't the best way to win arguments.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 9:57:47 GMT 1
If were going to genarlise a whole population. What should I assume your sexuality must be as your location is Brighton? And what is the meaning of the word Albion ---- -----? Might I suggest a subtle editing of your post? BTW name calling really isn't the best way to win arguments. OK I bet he's been called a lot worse.
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Post by mrbunny on Sept 4, 2014 10:59:43 GMT 1
I can't see how you could vote yes given all the uncertainty over currency and what happens if the EU turn round and say get lost. Seeing as Salmond has no plan other than it will be ok I would have no faith in him. Yes there would be positives but that negative far outweighs it for me. Will be an interesting vote either way. There are no certainties in politics Mr B. Promises are broken and friends betrayed on a daily basis. Lots of questions on matters such as the currency and EU which cannot be answered until the vote decides our position. To suggest that Alex Salmond has no plan or policies is a pretty naive opinion which perhaps can only be expected from folks viewing from afar. Salmond should not be underestimated. He has virtually reshaped the political landscape in Scotland single-handed. To wrestle power from a Labour stronghold and govern confidently with the powers he has at his disposal is no mean feat. Yes there are certainties in politics. Politicians LIE.
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sy6
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Post by sy6 on Sept 4, 2014 11:42:07 GMT 1
if Scotland voted yes, there would be in House of Commons 82 fewer labour MP's and 10 less libdems, 8 less snp and a permanent tory government. vote wisely up there. 53% no 47% yes hopefully. There are only 59 MPs from Scotland, so don't know what you're talking about.
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Post by neilsalop on Sept 4, 2014 12:26:26 GMT 1
I don't know if these questions have been asked, but if I lived in Scotland I'd be wanting answers:
Will the Royal Mail still be delivering to the highlands or even Scotland as a whole and will it cost more for post to be sent there?
What if anything will be happening to the TV licence fee?
Can current UK charities continue working in Scotland and will they receive only Scottish donations or will they still have access to the funds as a whole?
Will Scottish students receive preferential treatment regarding access to Scottish universities and if so will the rest of the UK still be accepting Scottish applications?
What about things like the coastguard, air sea rescue, major emergencies, major crimes, national databases, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum.
Will Scottish soldiers, sailors and airmen be made redundant or sacked? Would they be forced to choose the UK over Scotland or vice versa?
Will the current national grid have to be cut off at the border and Scotland forced to supply its' own power, or would the UK be charging more for the right to UK power in Scotland?
What about road fund licence fees? Will the Scots still have an MOT test, without the ministry of transport?
Will entry to the EU as a separate state require them to honour every single EU dictat no matter how ridiculous or would they still be in a position to negotiate?
What about football teams like Berwick Rangers and other border sports clubs playing in overlapping leagues?
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Post by RBA on Sept 4, 2014 13:04:16 GMT 1
No chance of a yes vote but the substantial minority vote in favour of independence will change the relationship between Scotland and the rest of the union. I think Salmon went for this vote too soon and has also been weak on the currency. To be independent Scotland needs its own currency which it alone issues and, similarly must not peg its value to that of another currency. I doubt there will be a yes vote but i think there is about a 20% chance,the polls are moving and the No vote need to get their voters to the poll Salmond had to go for this vote now he needed to do it while there was a Tory government and while he could be sure he had an overall majority at Holyroo- Totally agree with your last sentance
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 4, 2014 13:06:53 GMT 1
What I would be interested to know is how markglasgow, who once boasted at how the residents of Edinburgh bullied UKIP out of town and 'sent them homewards tae think again', presumably thinks Salmand and his group of hired thugs are in some way less xenophobic, or more credible than Farage and co. How is this so?
UKIP - Racist far-right little-Englanders who want to kick out all foreigners and free themselves from the shackles of Europe. SNP - Passionate left wing proud Scotsman who want to become an all encompassing nation devolved from the shackles of Westminster
Maybe I've over simplified the argument, but it's difficult not to contend that the Yes campaign is driven by 'little Scotlanders' who quote lines from Braveheart and the Flower of Scotland, who aren't in fact pro-anything but anti everything else.
In my eyes you either support national sovereignty or you don't. But then again this is the nation that gave us George Galloway, the man that bangs on incessantly about how the Irish and Arabs in Israel should be granted independence at the will of the people, but has been a vocal member of the 'No' campaign. All while preaching from his ivory tower in Notting Hill.
I don't live in Scotland but it's a country I warmed to when I visited a couple of months ago. I felt no different being in Glasgow than I did Birmingham or London and had no less in common speaking to Glaswegians than I did Mancs or Scousers.
I think the UK works how it is but I'm not going to preach to anyone about which is the right or wrong way to vote. I just hope that whoever votes, votes for the right reason and isn't lead by their nationalist chip on their shoulder, or influenced by messrs Bowie or McCartney who's pro-Union cheap shots are equally as embarrassing.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 15:13:41 GMT 1
I think it was David Cameron that chose 2014 for the Vote, Choosing to announce around the time of the Queen's jubilee and the Olympics whether he also meant the vote it to coincide just after the British Commonwealth games as well could be just coincidence. Or has he felt that these British events would polarise feelings to the Union at just the right time?
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sy6
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Post by sy6 on Sept 4, 2014 15:18:49 GMT 1
No, the date of the vote was chosen by the Scottish Government.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 15:43:10 GMT 1
I can't see how you could vote yes given all the uncertainty over currency and what happens if the EU turn round and say get lost. Seeing as Salmond has no plan other than it will be ok I would have no faith in him. Yes there would be positives but that negative far outweighs it for me. Will be an interesting vote either way. He has virtually reshaped the political landscape in Scotland single-handed. To wrestle power from a Labour stronghold and govern confidently with the powers he has at his disposal is no mean feat. This article suggests it’s a lot more complex than that. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/31/scottish-independence-yes-vote-turnout-polls?CMP=twt_guIn other words Salmond is an opportunist.
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Post by RBA on Sept 4, 2014 17:27:33 GMT 1
No, the date of the vote was chosen by the Scottish Government. This is correct
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Post by markglasgow on Sept 4, 2014 18:15:39 GMT 1
Not sure how you deduce that from the subtext but in reality Salmond just pushing through the Mandate that triggered the referendum in the first place. Salmond divides opinion in Scotland. Indeed some would argue that his mere presence harms the YES campaign.
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Post by markglasgow on Sept 4, 2014 18:25:00 GMT 1
Maybe I've over simplified the argument, but it's difficult not to contend that the Yes campaign is driven by 'little Scotlanders' who quote lines from Braveheart and the Flower of Scotland, who aren't in fact pro-anything but anti everything else. No maybes about it. You clearly have got no idea what drives the YES campaign. It may be soothing to believe that there is no plan or logic and that the Scot's are chasing nothing but a romantic notion, but again you are demonstrating your lack of understanding of political scenario. Some would suggest that there is a pattern developing here.
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 4, 2014 18:37:10 GMT 1
Maybe I've over simplified the argument, but it's difficult not to contend that the Yes campaign is driven by 'little Scotlanders' who quote lines from Braveheart and the Flower of Scotland, who aren't in fact pro-anything but anti everything else. No maybes about it. You clearly have got no idea what drives the YES campaign. It may be soothing to believe that there is no plan or logic and that the Scot's are chasing nothing but a romantic notion, but again you are demonstrating your lack of understanding of political scenario. Some would suggest that there is a pattern developing here. Exactly what part of the argument have I missed? That Scotland want to be independent because they feel Westminster gives them a raw deal. Is that wrong? I'm certainly under the impression that I'm not but if you know any different then pray tell then old boy. Until then you offer little more rationale than Salmand and his braveheart boys, and you're mentality of 'sending 'em back home' only unites you with the UKIP voting 'little Englanders' you want to distant yourselves from so much.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 18:50:15 GMT 1
The YES vote want Scotland to have full control on it's decisions. Even if Westminster was a Utopia of perfection it still would decide what Scotland does.
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