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Post by shrewinjapan on Sept 3, 2014 7:53:25 GMT 1
What are people's thoughts on this? Surprised how little it has been talked about on B&A, considering the wide topic range that usually gets covered. Just two weeks away from a vote of monumental importance to our nation, and it seems that the yes campaign is gaining ground and it will be a close run thing. Personally I think it would be a real shame if they did vote yes. As a practical matter it seems to me that after hundreds of years together it would be an immensely difficult thing to work out. I think it would be a great loss to the rest of the UK (in fact the very idea of a UK of England, Wales and Northern Ireland seems a bit ridiculous to me). So for mainly selfish reasons (I do feel bonds of kinship, which I guess are not entirely selfish) hope they vote no.
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Post by atcham jack on Sept 3, 2014 8:13:23 GMT 1
yes 45 no 55
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Post by mrbunny on Sept 3, 2014 8:21:12 GMT 1
I can't see how you could vote yes given all the uncertainty over currency and what happens if the EU turn round and say get lost. Seeing as Salmond has no plan other than it will be ok I would have no faith in him. Yes there would be positives but that negative far outweighs it for me.
Will be an interesting vote either way.
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Post by shrewder on Sept 3, 2014 8:26:53 GMT 1
My philosophy on issues like this is if I am unsure if change is the right thing, then vote no. So if I had a vote I would be voting no.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Sept 3, 2014 8:29:38 GMT 1
The vote will be no because of all the English people living there, which isn't the first time the English have denied the Scots their nationhood.
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Post by davycrockett on Sept 3, 2014 8:42:52 GMT 1
What are the rules re eligibility to vote?
Can Scotts living in England, or any other country vote? Can non Scotts living in Scotland vote?
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Sept 3, 2014 9:09:00 GMT 1
Couldn't give a monkeys about it personally - what difference does it actually make to those living in England? (Honest question, as I havn't been following it)
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Post by shrewinjapan on Sept 3, 2014 9:12:58 GMT 1
Only residents of Scotland can vote. Obviously there's not really any way to say whether a Brit is or isn't Scottish after three or four hundred years of union. Not sure if non-British residents get a vote. Scots living outside Scotland can't vote.
Does anybody know what the plans are regarding people's nationality in the event of a yes vote? Will Scots get dual UK nationality? Will Scottish ex-pats get Scottish nationality? Will other UK citizens get dual Scottish nationality if they want it?
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Sept 3, 2014 9:14:55 GMT 1
What are the rules re eligibility to vote? Can Scotts living in England, or any other country vote? Can non Scotts living in Scotland vote? Anyone living in Scotland.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Sept 3, 2014 9:32:57 GMT 1
I can't for the life of me understand why a people wouldn't leap at the opportunity to cut ties with Westminster. Fair enough, I don't the ins and outs but I just can't understand why the people of Scotland wouldn't want to make their own way, to go it alone. Who knows if things would improve but just looking to the papers each and every day would persuade me to vote for independence. I think they will regret not doing so and will always be thinking 'what if'. There is plenty wrong with the direction the UK is heading and I just can't understand why anyone would carry on down that route knowing an alternative is on offer. What that alternative is who knows. Its a gamble for sure but a gamble worth taking if I were north of the border.
I hope they vote for independence and good luck to them if they do...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 9:37:11 GMT 1
What are the rules re eligibility to vote? Can Scotts living in England, or any other country vote? Can non Scotts living in Scotland vote? The same as the General Election although Scotland may have allowed 16 year old's to vote by now, you have to be registered to Vote in Scotland and I expect that includes having to be a resident. The Conservative party has been the most passionate NO campaigners as it will mean that they will have little to no influence on issues in a large part of the Island anymore an they would become a minor Party in Scotland. The impartial BBC has also been showing an awful lot of Scottish history programmes recently, it's the organisation that will lose the most as it will not only lose £320,000,000 from the licence fee alone but an awful lot of it's production staff will have to move too. How will YES affect the rest of the UK? We will see stronger % representation of the Tory party in Westminster and possibly UKIP this meaning more chance of a either a Tory government or a UKIP/Tory coalition. This for one reason I hope they vote NO. I think the NO campaign is losing ground by patronising the Scottish people by claiming they have no chance of running it's own affairs when the Oil runs out.And can only do so with the UK's help. They should be concentrating their campaign on the ''unsure'' and explain a YES vote would be final with no turning back but a NO would likely see a second chance in 30- 40 years. As UK citizen I would like them to remain but I cannot do anything about that. A strong independent Scotland could encourage the rest of the UK to go it alone and as all the Nations appear to be pulling apart politically It might show that we are better running our own affairs England, Scotland, NI and Wales appear to differ greatly on views particularly on membership of the EU. Would Wales be happy for England to decide it's place in Europe?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 10:27:32 GMT 1
I don’t know how, but the UK works.
We can still celebrate our diverse religion identities and our unique nationality at the same time.
Maybe more devolved power is the way ahead – I don’t know, but all the Scots I know say they would be happy with that.
The problem is as usual the debate is clouded by ‘low rent’ bickering and the argument lost in a sea of mediocrity.
The problem I see with the ‘Yes’ campaign is that it is based on a romantic notion of Scottish identity that doesn’t really exist. You can’t get more diverse than the highlands and lowlands culturally, politically and economically.
The amount of investment required to keep the highland regions to the required standard of living of a western European nation, infrastructure and economic investment would cripple an independent Scotland outside the EU.
Just like any other small nation.
As an aside I once met Alex Salmond while he was MP for Buchan and Banff. I found him to be a bit of a tool to be honest.
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Post by mrbunny on Sept 3, 2014 10:40:12 GMT 1
I can't for the life of me understand why a people wouldn't leap at the opportunity to cut ties with Westminster. Fair enough, I don't the ins and outs but I just can't understand why the people of Scotland wouldn't want to make their own way, to go it alone. Who knows if things would improve but just looking to the papers each and every day would persuade me to vote for independence. I think they will regret not doing so and will always be thinking 'what if'. There is plenty wrong with the direction the UK is heading and I just can't understand why anyone would carry on down that route knowing an alternative is on offer. What that alternative is who knows. Its a gamble for sure but a gamble worth taking if I were north of the border. I hope they vote for independence and good luck to them if they do... Normally I would agree but I think Salmond saying vote Yes and it will be alright on the night is a big risk. You would think after this long they would have more plans set out for if they do win the vote like what happens with currency etc... but when he gets pushed on it he just mumbles a lot of tosh which would worry me if I lived up there.
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Post by calimero on Sept 3, 2014 10:58:23 GMT 1
I'd definitely be voting yes if I lived in Scotland. That aside I would like them to stay but also the potential to reshape the rest of the UK in the event of a Yes vote is tempting. Could open the door for unilateral nuclear disarmament (although I imagine Uncle Sam would force our hands). We could reduce our defence spending and no longer try and be a leading world power (still important but accept our place in the post-colonial world). The North of England could become more powerful and challenge the economic, media, and political dominance of London. The loss of Scottish votes could seal us in to centre-right politics or it could reinvigorate grassroot politics, really not sure.
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Post by staffordshrew on Sept 3, 2014 11:20:04 GMT 1
Salmond always strikes me as a shifty lying little toad (goes with the job I suppose). Don't care how they vote, but I wouldn't want him in charge.
Speaking of lying toads, the lib dems manifesto is apparently out/coming out soon - what's the point of that when their last manifesto was just ripped to shreds when they got a whiff of unwarranted power. Lies, all lies!
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Post by TheFoz on Sept 3, 2014 12:36:39 GMT 1
In terms of votes, wouldn't it be better for the Tories if Scotland left due to their lack of seats up there?
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Sept 3, 2014 12:47:03 GMT 1
In terms of votes, wouldn't it be better for the Tories if Scotland left due to their lack of seats up there? I suspect yer right. So that does make you wonder why they are in such a flap to persuade the people in Scotland to vote no. Cynical I guess but when you see Cameron actually taking some interest in what's happening up there the first thing you think is what's in it for him and his cronies at Westminster. What are they to lose out on if the Scots did vote for independence. And so with that you do wonder would it be such a big risk if Scotland were to go alone. If the Tories are so desperate to keep it a part of the UK then it must be worth something. And if that's the case why shouldn't the people of Scotland reap the benefits rather than the Bullingdon boys and their mates...
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Post by shrewinjapan on Sept 3, 2014 13:15:58 GMT 1
In terms of votes, wouldn't it be better for the Tories if Scotland left due to their lack of seats up there? I suspect yer right. So that does make you wonder why they are in such a flap to persuade the people in Scotland to vote no. Cynical I guess but when you see Cameron actually taking some interest in what's happening up there the first thing you think is what's in it for him and his cronies at Westminster. What are they to lose out on if the Scots did vote for independence. And so with that you do wonder would it be such a big risk if Scotland were to go alone. If the Tories are so desperate to keep it a part of the UK then it must be worth something. And if that's the case why shouldn't the people of Scotland reap the benefits rather than the Bullingdon boys and their mates... Think you may be being overly cynical there Stutty. That's understandable when it is politicians we're speaking of, especially if they're Tories, but in this matter I'm prepared to accept that they just genuinely feel that the Union is a good thing and we are indeed all "stronger together". btw If they do go, will that be the end of the union jack (or union flag if we are being more correct, since we're not at sea)? Would be a bit strange to continue to use a flag that two-thirds of was no longer really relevant (St. Patrick's cross, that doesn't really represent N.Ireland, and St. Andrew's cross, that represents Scotland). Also, we couldn't really use the name Great Britain anymore either.
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Post by davycrockett on Sept 3, 2014 14:46:01 GMT 1
I presume this means the current Scottish MP's will leave the current parliament and Scotland will have no voice in the UK anymore if the Scotch ;)vote yes to independence?
How will the get Passports, car tax et al if not in the UK surely the price will go up so that those agencies can offer the English a discount?
As you can see from my questions I know little about it but d wonder how these shared services will work?
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Post by TheFoz on Sept 3, 2014 15:28:22 GMT 1
Also, if Scotland breakaway and it's a success for them, could Wales try for a referendum?
Wales has 3 million people while Scotland has 5 million so there isn't that much difference in size.
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petshrew
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Post by petshrew on Sept 3, 2014 15:32:56 GMT 1
If I was a Scotsman I would vote yes, if only to get away from the completely unfair system sustained by a continuous right wing government (I include Labour in that). How people in England manage is beyond me. In Wales we have free parking at hospitals, no prescription charges, assistance for university places etc etc. as opposed to the English system of charges for everything and decreasing services. It seems to me that the Tories are determined to set up a system of haves and have nots, the continuation of a class system where the "boys" get all the decent jobs etc whilst the poor don't have a dogs. I hope the Scots do vote yes to encourage Wales to do the same thing. Nothing against the English, just want to get away from a Tory dominated system.
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Post by neilsalop on Sept 3, 2014 16:32:14 GMT 1
If Scotland votes yes we will never see anything apart from a Conservative led government. For that reason alone I hope they vote no.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 16:39:40 GMT 1
If I was a Scotsman I would vote yes, if only to get away from the completely unfair system sustained by a continuous right wing government (I include Labour in that). How people in England manage is beyond me. In Wales we have free parking at hospitals, no prescription charges, assistance for university places etc etc. as opposed to the English system of charges for everything and decreasing services. It seems to me that the Tories are determined to set up a system of haves and have nots, the continuation of a class system where the "boys" get all the decent jobs etc whilst the poor don't have a dogs. I hope the Scots do vote yes to encourage Wales to do the same thing. Nothing against the English, just want to get away from a Tory dominated system. Read that again it doesn't make sense! Are you implying the welsh and the scots who get everything for free are the have nots whereas the english who have to pay for everything are the haves? ??
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 16:50:19 GMT 1
If I was a Scotsman I would vote yes, if only to get away from the completely unfair system sustained by a continuous right wing government (I include Labour in that). How people in England manage is beyond me. In Wales we have free parking at hospitals, no prescription charges, assistance for university places etc etc. as opposed to the English system of charges for everything and decreasing services. It seems to me that the Tories are determined to set up a system of haves and have nots, the continuation of a class system where the "boys" get all the decent jobs etc whilst the poor don't have a dogs. I hope the Scots do vote yes to encourage Wales to do the same thing. Nothing against the English, just want to get away from a Tory dominated system. The funding for Wales comes from central government. If Wales went fully independent then that funding would go. So the question is would these free spaces still be available?
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Sept 3, 2014 16:56:31 GMT 1
I'm with the majority on here, if I lived in Scotland I'd vote yes but I'm hoping for a no result.
I believe that an independent Scotland would be economically viable, especially with the help that small countries get from the EU.
The Highlands may be big and empty but their economic potential is significant, especially for hydro electric power and biomass production.
In the event of a yes vote the most interesting thing for me is the law of unintended consequences - no one can predict what will follow. For example, without Scotland there would be a permanent Tory majority which is unacceptable in a democracy.
One thing for sure is that the English regions will go for much greater freedom from Westminster and the right to control their own spending and raise taxes. There is already talk of Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds/Bradford and Sheffield joining together to improve infrastructure. Why does it take me almost as long to travel the 30 miles from Manchester to Liverpool and it does the 200 miles from Manchester to London? Or to take a Salop perspective, why can't you get a direct train from Shrewsbury to the capital?
The answer is that planning and spending in this country is overwhelmingly London centric.
I see the point being made that if Scotland votes yes then Wales will want to follow. Well, the economy of Greater Manchester is bigger than the whole of Wales, so the north will certainly be agitating for autonomy.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 17:05:06 GMT 1
I'm with the majority on here, if I lived in Scotland I'd vote yes but I'm hoping for a no result. I believe that an independent Scotland would be economically viable, especially with the help that small countries get from the EU. The Highlands may be big and empty but their economic potential is significant, especially for hydro electric power and biomass production. In the event of a yes vote the most interesting thing for me is the law of unintended consequences - no one can predict what will follow. For example, without Scotland there would be a permanent Tory majority which is unacceptable in a democracy. One thing for sure is that the English regions will go much greater freedom from Westminster and the right to control their own spending and raise taxes. There is already talk of Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds/Bradford and Sheffield joining together to improve infrastructure. Why does it take me almost as long to travel the 30 miles from Manchester to Liverpool and it does the 200 miles from Manchester to London? Or to take a Salop perspective, why can't you get a direct train from Shrewsbury to the capital? The answer is that planning and spending in this country is overwhelmingly London centric. I see the point being made that if Scotland votes yes then Wales will want to follow. Well, the economy of Greater Manchester is bigger than the whole of Wales, so the north will certainly be agitating for autonomy. The way I understand it there is no guarantee that Scotland will be part of the EU. If the pound is withdrawn they will need a central bank for a start. They of course will still have to go through the usual procedures, it is not an automatic processes. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-independence-eu-bid-extremely-difficult-says-jose-manuel-barroso-9131925.htmlThe highlands needs improved infrastructure. Looking at the ‘Yes’ campaigns social welfare policies most of the money will be poured into the central belt, or the lowlands if you like.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Sept 3, 2014 17:11:13 GMT 1
Nick, if you look at the countries that are in there can be little doubt that an independent Scotland will be admitted - I agree that it may take some time though.
The big worry for Scots should be the way Salmond is cosying up to the Chinese who are busy buying up natural resources all over the world.
If they're not careful the Scots will find their masters are in Beijing instead of London.
Also I think Barroso has a political motive given the number of separatist pressures in Spain.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 17:16:55 GMT 1
I have shares in Michelmersh. Here,s hoping that that big wall needs rebuilding, I'll be quids in.
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Post by venceremos on Sept 3, 2014 17:37:27 GMT 1
Anyone who saw Salmond creepily selling out his own people to Donald Trump in the excellent "You've Been Trumped" documentary knows he's no Braveheart liberator of Scotland!
Like many others, I'd be voting "yes" if I lived in Scotland to get away from Westminster and the suffocating British establishment. Living in England, I have to hope they stay with us. There is value to all of the UK in maintaining the union (and traditional Tories are unionists, which is why Cameron will be forever discredited if he loses Scotland).
Excellent and throught-provoking post from calimero. Too little has been said about how the remnants of the UK could be reshaped after a Scottish exit. Good to think of some possible positives rather than the appalling negative assumption of eternal Tory government!
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Post by markglasgow on Sept 3, 2014 18:21:02 GMT 1
The vote will be no because of all the English people living there, which isn't the first time the English have denied the Scots their nationhood. The BBC recently announced some startling figures which revealed that almost 500K English/Welsh/NI citizens live and work in Scotland. They also told us that 700K Scots born people live and work in either England/Wales/NI.
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