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Post by Myddleshrew on Sept 2, 2014 10:32:26 GMT 1
I wasn't there due to Ill health in family and I was chatting to a neighbour who is a middle aged lady. She said some Asian lad prior to match in a pub was causing a stir with sheep quotes etc and she wasin block 16/17 and saw same lad taunting block 19/20 with same quotes. He got it back. Not condoning it put dish it take it ain't anti Welsh chants also racist?
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Post by venceremos on Sept 2, 2014 10:52:28 GMT 1
The lad was giving it the big un all gamea, even took his top off and seemed to be enjoying it. I dont think it was him who made the complaint. Another set of Asian gentlemen around 4 or 5 made the complaint at half time and seemed to point at top end of block 18. Sent from my C5303 using proboards Thanks for the info. Then that's what happens isn't it. If some lad is going to behave like that then it's inevitable that he is going to get some abuse back (and some). Not right like. Not nice for the rest of us. But that's what happens. Once the abuse starts it will escalate and then it's gloves off and anything goes. Plenty of people not involved have to sit through it all of course but for the most part the chants will be aimed at people who are more than happy to give as much as they receive. And I honestly don't think you will stop it either. I'm not entirely sure you can get yourself into trouble from making reference to a passport or a curry house. Well as much as you can about referencing sheep, someone's sexual preference, hair length or size of gut. And that seems to go unpunished most weeks. I take your point and don't think anyone's expecting rival fans not to engage in verbals with each other and this lad might have been a particular numpty. I don't think that's really the point. When a section of the crowd makes an issue of race, that takes it away from "banter". Whether or not the target of the abuse objects or is somehow seen as " deserving it" isn't really the point either. It's simply not an acceptable way to behave. I know the subject's been done to death on here but referencing sheep or being Welsh or northern is not the same thing at all, though I know some will swear blind that it is.
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Post by venceremos on Sept 2, 2014 11:04:36 GMT 1
I wasn't there due to Ill health in family and I was chatting to a neighbour who is a middle aged lady. She said some Asian lad prior to match in a pub was causing a stir with sheep quotes etc and she wasin block 16/17 and saw same lad taunting block 19/20 with same quotes. He got it back. Not condoning it put dish it take it ain't anti Welsh chants also racist? No, because race refers to biological factors so an "Asian lad" (who's probably British anyway) will have a slightly different appearance to an English person. A Welsh person won't. Apart from that, why would most Shrewsbury fans be offended by anti-Welsh chants when they (and the chanters) know they're not Welsh? Our Welsh fans might take offence and should consider complaining if they do. I'm not convinced that would make it racist though, because Welsh and English are different ethnicities within the same Caucasian race. In any case using "Welsh" as a derogatory term for people on the English side of the border isn't the same thing as using an offensive term for all people of a particular ethnicity.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Sept 2, 2014 11:14:06 GMT 1
Thanks for the info. Then that's what happens isn't it. If some lad is going to behave like that then it's inevitable that he is going to get some abuse back (and some). Not right like. Not nice for the rest of us. But that's what happens. Once the abuse starts it will escalate and then it's gloves off and anything goes. Plenty of people not involved have to sit through it all of course but for the most part the chants will be aimed at people who are more than happy to give as much as they receive. And I honestly don't think you will stop it either. I'm not entirely sure you can get yourself into trouble from making reference to a passport or a curry house. Well as much as you can about referencing sheep, someone's sexual preference, hair length or size of gut. And that seems to go unpunished most weeks. I take your point and don't think anyone's expecting rival fans not to engage in verbals with each other and this lad might have been a particular numpty. I don't think that's really the point. When a section of the crowd makes an issue of race, that takes it away from "banter". Whether or not the target of the abuse objects or is somehow seen as " deserving it" isn't really the point either. It's simply not an acceptable way to behave. I know the subject's been done to death on here but referencing sheep or being Welsh or northern is not the same thing at all, though I know some will swear blind that it is. Well that's just your opinion isn't it. Others will say it is. And we'd be back to debating the subject to death once again.
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Post by camdenshrew on Sept 2, 2014 11:38:31 GMT 1
In defence of the Welsh, isn't it possible that the quaint term "sheepshagger" could also be deemed to refer to a person of English, Scottish or Irish extraction - or indeed anybody from a largely rural area - who might otherwise struggle to find a human sexual partner?
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Post by ssshrew on Sept 2, 2014 12:06:07 GMT 1
This incident has also been well highlighted by the Shropshire Star! Just another bit of bad publicity for the club that those in Shrewsbury who don't like us anyway can jump on.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Sept 2, 2014 12:08:40 GMT 1
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Post by Catalyst Cartel on Sept 2, 2014 12:13:25 GMT 1
Its been proven in a court of law, calling somebody by a nationality with abuse is racist. Fact.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Sept 2, 2014 12:28:37 GMT 1
While I'm saddened by the fact that a number of people have attitudes that are stuck in the 1970s and appear to be happy about it, I'm also depressed by the lack of wit, originality or humour of the so-called banter.
Frankly, I was more bored than outraged by the chanting on offer on Saturday.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 14:11:13 GMT 1
I'm sure one of the Scottish Army Regiments are known as the Sheep Shaggers. May have heard that on "8 out of 10 cats does countdown".
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Post by wiseone on Sept 2, 2014 17:11:12 GMT 1
This comment seems not to have been picked up on but it does make you ask if the passport chant is what the complaint was about.
It probably is since it refers to more than one person involved, but we will only find out more when the club release more details.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 17:16:50 GMT 1
At this rate in a few years time I wont even be allowed to abuse the referee and linesman, which is one of the few pleasures left in life!
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Post by davycrockett on Sept 2, 2014 18:03:31 GMT 1
I think the statement from the club is vague and we do need clarification to whether the 'where's your passport' chant is anything to do with the complaint or if something more serious is involved?
Not the greatest idea to put this on shrewsweb as sure to be taken up by SS...
As many others have said, where's your passport is crass, old hat and embarrassing but is it illegal?
We also need clarification if "your welsh and you know you are" or "sheep shagers" is any less insulting or illegal? And whether the club via stewards are going to monitor the away fans and take action? Mass ejections should be fun!
not sure if there's one g or two in shaggers as both come up as miss spelt but seem to be allowed on the board censor tool?
Questions for Laptop
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Post by draytonginge on Sept 2, 2014 18:06:05 GMT 1
The luton town fan in question regardless of race was being The biggest idiot in the ground. I saw him a number of times take off his shirt and beat his chest And make a cut your throat symbol. And some of the people on here want our fans thrown out to defend an idiot like that In my opinion it should be you thrown out.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 18:12:41 GMT 1
Delighted that so many on here are standing up for the Welsh. Genuinely touched.
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Post by davycrockett on Sept 2, 2014 18:35:34 GMT 1
We're not defending the welsh just so insulted to be called welsh
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Post by davycrockett on Sept 2, 2014 18:36:28 GMT 1
The luton town fan in question regardless of race was being The biggest idiot in the ground. I saw him a number of times take off his shirt and beat his chest And make a cut your throat symbol. And some of the people on here want our fans thrown out to defend an idiot like that In my opinion it should be you thrown out. Who's defending him? Who's said he's the complainant?
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Post by pughywasfree on Sept 2, 2014 18:42:16 GMT 1
Isn't that racist Dave because your implying that being Welsh is a bad thing?
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Post by shrewsace on Sept 2, 2014 18:46:50 GMT 1
The Luton fan aka 'Stripey' certainly brought himself to the attention of the Town fans, so it wasn't a case of spotting a brown face and singling him out.
But how do you think Town fans of Asisn or black origin would feel, hearing 'their own' fans banging on about currys and passports?
Comfortable, welcome, safe?
Probably none of these things .
Not sure I follow venceremos distinction between races and ethnicities, though.
If I call a French player a 'frog', or a German a 'Nazi' for example, is this inherently non-racist as we're all of the same Caucasian race?
I remember a bit of a political row a while back involving claims of racism as someone used the phrase 'welshing on a deal'.
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Post by davycrockett on Sept 2, 2014 19:10:04 GMT 1
Isn't that racist Dave because your implying that being Welsh is a bad thing? I think I got away with it with the wink
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 2, 2014 20:11:55 GMT 1
Over 35,000 people like a page on facebook called 'jew goal' which is an online gaming term for someone who scares the ball when 2 on 1 with the keeper.
Racist or not? Just curiously like. Because if so, there are a fair few hundred thousand racist people who should be getting a knock at the door.
I must say I do support Spurs fans in their case for turning the derogatory term 'Yid' into a phrase of empowerment and pride, with the intent that accepting an insult, whether rightly or not, will mean people eventually getting bored of using it as a way of demeaning you.
I would much rather our fans responded ironically with the chant of '2-0 to the sheep shaggers' instead of resorting to some barf about currys and passports. Likewise, had Luton won the game a chant of '2-0 to the curry dwellers' or something to that effect would have equally diffused the situation. '2-0 to the fans without a British and Northern Irish passport' perhaps?
What I certainly don't concur to is someone claiming ownership of a derogatory term but only they and people of the same ethnic belonging or religion can use it, else it's 'racist'
That my friends, is b*llocks.
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Post by callum on Sept 2, 2014 20:27:19 GMT 1
Four pages over a bit of banter, do we get to upset over trivial things these days? I couldn't give a stuff what any fans sang at me at a game! I wish the club were as quick dealing with the queue issue as they are with this!!!
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Post by jamo on Sept 2, 2014 21:50:28 GMT 1
Delighted that so many on here are standing up for the Welsh. Genuinely touched. It's to be encouraged. Out of interest, do you have a passport ?
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Post by mattmw on Sept 2, 2014 21:56:06 GMT 1
The luton town fan in question regardless of race was being The biggest idiot in the ground. I saw him a number of times take off his shirt and beat his chest And make a cut your throat symbol. And some of the people on here want our fans thrown out to defend an idiot like that In my opinion it should be you thrown out. Think most fans want racists thrown out regardless of which end of the ground they are in. That way we can get on with watching the football on the pitch not the fans in the stand. All the forums mentioned in the club press release are open to report the Luton fan and his behaviour. Dead easy to do and all reports get followed up so well worth doing
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Post by Dancin on Sept 3, 2014 13:26:33 GMT 1
The report of Racist Behaviour I believe is not associated with the chanting but with something that went on prior to the chanting?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 23:15:47 GMT 1
Talk about a storm in a teacup
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Post by venceremos on Sept 4, 2014 1:10:55 GMT 1
Not sure I follow venceremos distinction between races and ethnicities, though. If I call a French player a 'frog', or a German a 'Nazi' for example, is this inherently non-racist as we're all of the same Caucasian race? I remember a bit of a political row a while back involving claims of racism as someone used the phrase 'welshing on a deal'. The Oxford English Dictionary says the term "welshing" is of unknown origin, so you'd have to assume to know more than the OED and that it definitely had a racial origin to claim it was racist. That would be sadly typical behaviour for some loose-mouthed, publicity hungry politicians. I take your point about the unclear distinction. Again, the OED connects ethnicity to national and cultural characteristics and race to common descent or origin and having certain physical features in common. The line does seem a little blurred but I wouldn't think it was racist to call a German a Nazi, any more than calling a Russian a Commie or a Spaniard a Fascist. It's too loose - all Germans aren't, and never were, Nazis. I think that's quite different to using a term that's widely understood to be abusive to a particular race, based on an unavoidable physical characteristic (usually skin colour). Somewhere in the middle ground are those terms applied to a particular nationality, like "frog" etc. In my opinion, they're not racist in the widely understood sense of the term, unless they're connected to some form of persecution or suppression by a majority. I suppose that depends on the particular context. But that's why I don't believe "you're Welsh and you know you are" or "sheepshaggers" is any more racist than the equally stale "small town in ......." and "......... is a s***hole, I wanna go home" chants. Just my opinion. If anyone finds real offence in something, they should complain or report it, not suggest it somehow balances out behaviour that harks back to the shameful days of monkey chanting and bananas thrown from the terraces. Hard to believe we're still having these discussions in 2014. Slow progress.
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Post by bertymax on Sept 4, 2014 1:26:56 GMT 1
The luton town fan in question regardless of race was being The biggest idiot in the ground. I saw him a number of times take off his shirt and beat his chest And make a cut your throat symbol. And some of the people on here want our fans thrown out to defend an idiot like that In my opinion it should be you thrown out. Is this true? Wasn't at the game but if this is true, I.e the Asian lad making cut throat gesture then I'm not surprised a few town fans started to abuse him, if I saw that, rightly or wrongly my interpretation would of possibly been a reference to the recent be headings by I.S and I would of been incensed.
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Post by davycrockett on Sept 4, 2014 9:08:57 GMT 1
Talk about a storm in a teacup How can you say that? No one knows the details of the complaint, or do you?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 12:36:50 GMT 1
Sorry if this has been mentioned only read the first 2 pages. To just point out on the sheep shagger chant is not racist because being Welsh is not a race but a nationality. Its like the Australians calling us 'poms'. Though unkind Sheep shagger does not make racism.
However singling a man out because his skin colour meaning he must be from the middle east and therefore the chant implied he was an illegal immigrant. Although there are less people of asian apperance in Shrewsbury I can tell you from the last year at University and collegues at work in Birmingham this sort of behaviour is not on and those who started this chant do not deserve to watch the Town play.
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