Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 23:38:06 GMT 1
But well deserved and earned Both Churchill and Maggie governed during this countries darkest days, but Churchill got us out of them and Maggie got us into them. Think your getting Maggie confused with herr blair ......
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 23:39:46 GMT 1
As much as I would love a pay rise and no 1% over three or four years does not constitute a pay rise, I am more concern about the environment of fear and loathing that I am subjected to.
A front line service stripped down to bare basics. A duty service "managing" the majority of cases, an allocation list that sits at over 100 people waiting for priority allocation and clients/cases that have not been reviewed for 1/2/3/4/5/6 years.
A lunch break that can't be taken because there is not adequate cover and social care provided over the telephone as opposed to in person. Working with private providers that do not have the infrastructure, the employees or the decency to provide a level of care, with their only interest there bottom line. Throw in the fun and games with the way that the local trust is managing their hospital resources, the inability for GP's to get out and see the most vulnerable patients and the dismantling of district/community nursing and actually what you have is:
A system stretched beyond maximum capacity, Staff that are over worked, under paid, under trained and under resourced forced to rely on outsourced partners who are here today and gone tomorrow in order to provide a s**t and disjointed service. A government that is not interested in providing a welfare state, merely auctioning off services-I can't even have a discussion with ATOS about an assessment on behalf of a client because of data protection (the same excuse given to the client when they phoned up) we're all expected to sit around and wait 6-9 months for an assessment to be written up and finalised-all that time said individual having to survive on a FoodBank because their benefit has been suspended pending their review?!?!?!?!?!
That is what we are faced with, the most vulnerable are left to flit between hospital and home being subjected to (un)care(ing) calls from absolute strangers employed at less than minimum wage.
Eric Pickles has only sought to devolve to local council's the impossible responsibility for cutting large swathes of services.
And before you let loose, I realise that I am "lucky". I work for a London council, where there is a concentration of resources.
I work hard, I often put in 50 hour weeks (thats an extra two days per week), carers put in 10-12 hours a day. It doesn't matter how hard you work, unless attitudes change the lowest paid will continue to get ****ed over irrespective of whether they work 24 hours per day.
We need to support and value those that look after our most vulnerable. If we don't give a s**t about them, why should they give a s**t about you grandfather, sick mother, disabled son etc...
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owdlad
Midland League Division Two
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Post by owdlad on Jul 11, 2014 0:11:44 GMT 1
Totally agree. I expect my isp, gas and electricity to go up each year so why has my council tax been frozen for 5 years whilst services go downhill?
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Post by Scarecrow on Jul 11, 2014 0:53:42 GMT 1
Michael Gove seems to have covered up this well... Look who was once on a picket line, helping a government now wanting to take away the right to strike. Attachments:
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Post by jamo on Jul 11, 2014 7:31:13 GMT 1
As much as I would love a pay rise and no 1% over three or four years does not constitute a pay rise, I am more concern about the environment of fear and loathing that I am subjected to. A front line service stripped down to bare basics. A duty service "managing" the majority of cases, an allocation list that sits at over 100 people waiting for priority allocation and clients/cases that have not been reviewed for 1/2/3/4/5/6 years. A lunch break that can't be taken because there is not adequate cover and social care provided over the telephone as opposed to in person. Working with private providers that do not have the infrastructure, the employees or the decency to provide a level of care, with their only interest there bottom line. Throw in the fun and games with the way that the local trust is managing their hospital resources, the inability for GP's to get out and see the most vulnerable patients and the dismantling of district/community nursing and actually what you have is: A system stretched beyond maximum capacity, Staff that are over worked, under paid, under trained and under resourced forced to rely on outsourced partners who are here today and gone tomorrow in order to provide a s**t and disjointed service. A government that is not interested in providing a welfare state, merely auctioning off services-I can't even have a discussion with ATOS about an assessment on behalf of a client because of data protection (the same excuse given to the client when they phoned up) we're all expected to sit around and wait 6-9 months for an assessment to be written up and finalised-all that time said individual having to survive on a FoodBank because their benefit has been suspended pending their review?!?!?!?!?! That is what we are faced with, the most vulnerable are left to flit between hospital and home being subjected to (un)care(ing) calls from absolute strangers employed at less than minimum wage. Eric Pickles has only sought to devolve to local council's the impossible responsibility for cutting large swathes of services. And before you let loose, I realise that I am "lucky". I work for a London council, where there is a concentration of resources. I work hard, I often put in 50 hour weeks (thats an extra two days per week), carers put in 10-12 hours a day. It doesn't matter how hard you work, unless attitudes change the lowest paid will continue to get ****ed over irrespective of whether they work 24 hours per day. We need to support and value those that look after our most vulnerable. If we don't give a s**t about them, why should they give a s**t about you grandfather, sick mother, disabled son etc... Top post shambles. And it's not just London, that scenario is being played out right across the land. And it's deliberate and pre meditated. It is also incredibly spiteful and damaging and eventually will bring disaster and huge expense to us all
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 7:55:57 GMT 1
1) I'd replace strike action with a work to rule. The economy generally relies upon unpaid work and this is rife in the public sector. This has been used very effectively at my workplace; the problem is of course that it doesn’t get the publicity that strike action gets. I would imagine that one of the objectives of yesterday’s strike was an attempt at publicising the very real problems in public sector. Unfortunately the narrative was about mandates, low voter turnout and legislation to make it harder for employees to exercise their right of withdrawing their labour in our liberal democracy. What really grips me is that people still think this action is only about pay. Well done to those involved.
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Post by El Presidente on Jul 11, 2014 10:14:20 GMT 1
Well it's not as good as an MP, who's only training seems to be butt slurping their way to the top of the hog's trough. Any road up, I wonder if the salary would have been that high if industrial action hadn't been taken in the past?
There are also the proposed changes to shift patterns which could mean firefighters essentially living at the station for days at a time. A very sly move as most firefighters have, or will have families and these shifts will prove incompatible with most people's lives - voila, no one stays in the fire service for too long, no one claims a full pension. Head, nail, smacked bang on. The Tory strategy is to deconstruct that which makes working in the police, fire service, NHS, schools so unpalatable that once the rose tinted glasses are removed, and new entrants see it for what it is, they're heading for the hills after 12 years. Hence, no full pension; no medical retirements etc. This will lead to reduced performance and reduced public satisfaction, increased training costs and lowering skill levels and skill retention. In essence, high turnover public services which do nothing for growth and stability.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 11, 2014 10:17:18 GMT 1
Everyone knows the public sector have had it too good for too long , with their over inflated pensions and cushty hours. Now they are having to join the real world they are throwing their toys out of the pram . Fair play to the government for turning round the economy and putting the emphasis on a competitve private sector which is the only way to do it really . With a bit of luck we will never have a truly socialist government again in this country along the lines advocated by some of the Eric Heffers on here or we will be in trouble ! Reminds me of the old Russian joke, which goes something like this: “The peasant Ivan is jealous of his neighbour Boris, because Boris has a goat. A fairy comes along and offers Ivan a single wish. What does he wish for? That Boris’s goat should drop dead.” Made me chuckle that but absolutely spot on. That's what I was trying to get at with my early post but that says it so much better...
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flook
Shropshire County League
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Post by flook on Jul 11, 2014 10:42:01 GMT 1
Lets get things straight here. Above average wages for years? Gold plated pensions? I work for the council full time. Five years ago I was earning circa £16k. Since then I have not had a pay rise of any sort but have had to take a 5.4% wage cut. The department I work for has been decimated. Morale is terrible. My pension no longer has a lump sum payment and has now changed to an average not final salary pension. The system has now been changed to make it just about impossible for me to get a performance based rise or a rise based on the years I have served.In that time the cost of living has risen hugely.In that time money has been spent on ridiculous initiatives run by consultants whilst services for the young the elderly and the vunerable fall apart. There are many people worse off than me. Did I support the strike....Hell yes
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 10:44:51 GMT 1
Shambles, decent post TBH, but one thing that strikes me is that the government is not interested in a welfare state, Nobody is let alone the government. The problem is the Labour government made it to easy for people to claim benifits and become workshy, I am seeing this first hand this summer, We have to get away from a welfare state and offer assistance to those that actually need it, and support them, not every tom dick and harry who think its better to stay on benifits than to actually work.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 11, 2014 11:01:48 GMT 1
Maybe people think its better to stay on welfare because the wages on offer aren't good enough. To encourage people to work, offer them decent wages to do so.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 11:38:46 GMT 1
And therein lies the problem. As soon as it better to go to work then the cycle will start again, but what comes first? does not matter weather its private or public sector, times are difficult for Mr Average, trust me on this, some of our benifit people are looking to work and will take anything on offer. however for everyone of them, i will show you another who wants to enter a business at managing director level and will stay on benifits until that position comes along.
Just today i have contracted people supposed to go to work, and this morning 1 person has phoned in saying she is having the day off because her cat has gone into labour and she wants to see the birth. Now i have to go around and find another member of staff to cover that position and she thinks i am being unreasonable when say that she is due in work and expect her to be here.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 11:47:45 GMT 1
Shambles, decent post TBH, but one thing that strikes me is that the government is not interested in a welfare state, Nobody is let alone the government. The problem is the Labour government made it to easy for people to claim benifits and become workshy, I am seeing this first hand this summer, We have to get away from a welfare state and offer assistance to those that actually need it, and support them, not every tom dick and harry who think its better to stay on benifits than to actually work. The welfare state is about much more than benefits. It is about providing afit for purpose social care plan too the elderly, infirm,disabled and those suffering with illnesses such as dementia and cancer. It is about providing timely life changing intervention for socially disadvantaged and vulnerable children. It's about providing the healthcare,free at the point of delivery that people expect and at a standard that has recently been held up as a successful model internationally. It is about providing a decent educational experience with opportunities to succeed and advance. It is about investing in higher tier education, collages and research. It is about providing a shelter and safety for those who find themselves fleeing from domestic violence, battling addiction or homelessness. It's about policing our streets and keeping us safe and secure. It is about being able to see a GP,collect a prescription, be referred for physiology and go to the dentist. It's about the people who either work in the background to support these services and help them run effectively or either provide these services directly. The public are the first people to complain when a service has waiting lists, is disjointed,is poor. When they feel that the employee is indifferent to their circumstances. You want a decent service you have to pay for it. Is the starting salary for a social worker (£27500) overpriced? If you want monkeys, pay peanuts. Just don't complain when you require a service and it has either gone by the wayside or is so overstretched that it provides zero quality of service. This is what the welfare state is about. Employing people with the correct skill set to provide often very a sensitive and essential services.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 11, 2014 12:23:20 GMT 1
...i will show you another who wants to enter a business at managing director level and will stay on benifits until that position comes along. And I will no doubt be able to show you someone who is just waiting for a job that provides an honest days wage for an honest days work. See, anyone can play that game...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 12:23:27 GMT 1
Shambles, decent post TBH, but one thing that strikes me is that the government is not interested in a welfare state, Nobody is let alone the government. The problem is the Labour government made it to easy for people to claim benifits and become workshy, I am seeing this first hand this summer, We have to get away from a welfare state and offer assistance to those that actually need it, and support them, not every tom dick and harry who think its better to stay on benifits than to actually work. The welfare state is about much more than benefits. It is about providing afit for purpose social care plan too the elderly, infirm,disabled and those suffering with illnesses such as dementia and cancer. It is about providing timely life changing intervention for socially disadvantaged and vulnerable children. It's about providing the healthcare,free at the point of delivery that people expect and at a standard that has recently been held up as a successful model internationally. It is about providing a decent educational experience with opportunities to succeed and advance. It is about investing in higher tier education, collages and research. It is about providing a shelter and safety for those who find themselves fleeing from domestic violence, battling addiction or homelessness. It's about policing our streets and keeping us safe and secure. It is about being able to see a GP,collect a prescription, be referred for physiology and go to the dentist. It's about the people who either work in the background to support these services and help them run effectively or either provide these services directly. The public are the first people to complain when a service has waiting lists, is disjointed,is poor. When they feel that the employee is indifferent to their circumstances. You want a decent service you have to pay for it. Is the starting salary for a social worker (£27500) overpriced? If you want monkeys, pay peanuts. Just don't complain when you require a service and it has either gone by the wayside or is so overstretched that it provides zero quality of service. This is what the welfare state is about. Employing people with the correct skill set to provide often very a sensitive and essential services. I actually agree with on all of those points, however, this will never be 100|% achievable, problem is Rob, you have to many people playing the system, to many people looking for how quickly they can shaft the system, look at how many claims for whiplash that are so easy to just pay out. When socitey plays its part in the welfare state rather than just take, then the system you dream of is just as unachievable. Problem is the system is clogged up with people expecting but not really needing, and until you get them away from the front of the que, then the real needy people will still be struggling to get past them!!
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Post by jamo on Jul 11, 2014 13:26:45 GMT 1
Downie, just a quick question. Were those staggeringly wealthy investors in the Liberty tax avoidance scheme just playing the system ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 14:22:54 GMT 1
Downie, just a quick question. Were those staggeringly wealthy investors in the Liberty tax avoidance scheme just playing the system ? Of course they are playing the system, and its the systems at fault, but you cant fix it overnight, HMRC as incompetant and have been under several governments, not just this one. You cannot fix everything straight away. Answer to the questions about priority of fixing problems again, i would not have a clue about. But when your in the middle of fixing it, dont strangle the system more by closing off the jobs that those provide.
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Post by neilsalop on Jul 11, 2014 16:35:44 GMT 1
FWIW my daughter works for a local authority and went in yesterday. She didn't want to, but with only two people in her department working she felt that she needed to be there for her clients. Providing a service is important to her as she deals with vulnerable people.
As it happens she was attacked at work and a client attempted to strangle her, it was only the intervention of another client that saved her. She gets about £23k a year, enough to risk your life?
Earlier this week a healthcare worker was stabbed to death in Gloucester. How much was she earning, enough to cost her her life?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 16:58:10 GMT 1
FWIW my daughter works for a local authority and went in yesterday. She didn't want to, but with only two people in her department working she felt that she needed to be there for her clients. Providing a service is important to her as she deals with vulnerable people. As it happens she was attacked at work and a client attempted to strangle her, it was only the intervention of another client that saved her. She gets about £23k a year, enough to risk your life? Earlier this week a healthcare worker was stabbed to death in Gloucester. How much was she earning, enough to cost her her life? its all about risk!! unfortunate yeah but there are plenty of soldiers on far less than 23k a year!!
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Post by neilsalop on Jul 11, 2014 17:07:16 GMT 1
FWIW my daughter works for a local authority and went in yesterday. She didn't want to, but with only two people in her department working she felt that she needed to be there for her clients. Providing a service is important to her as she deals with vulnerable people. As it happens she was attacked at work and a client attempted to strangle her, it was only the intervention of another client that saved her. She gets about £23k a year, enough to risk your life? Earlier this week a healthcare worker was stabbed to death in Gloucester. How much was she earning, enough to cost her her life? its all about risk!! unfortunate yeah but there are plenty of soldiers on far less than 23k a year!! You're probably right, but they join up knowing that they could be sent to war. Working for the council or at a hospital should not require the same risks. Just out of curiosity do you also wish to see forces pensions decimated?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 17:19:37 GMT 1
Forces pensions are being ripped apart as it is, but that is life, we are living longer and still expect to retire at 65, people say we should not play god when someone requests to die but we do it all the time when people are ill, we are beating most disease's now that were incurable, is that not also playing god? but the systems are now at breaking point.
We have to understand that you cannot simply say its not worth a life, which BTW no job is, but you cannot legislate for everything.
Problem is we have let people become accustomed to everything being handed on a plate to them, we have to understand that there are waifs and strays in society who will prefer to play the system and take take all the time without ostracising the needy who do require the help. whilst cracking down on the scroungers there are undoubtedly going to be some innocent people caught up in it, as long as they are dealt with correctly at the time, then that is just unfortunate.
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Post by shrewed46 on Jul 11, 2014 17:35:58 GMT 1
When it comes to take take take we should be condemning our MP's like a certain David Cameron who claimed £2.71 for a packet of folders.
It always amazes me that Tory supporters always complain about benefit scroungers but fail to criticise those people and companies who avoid tax or fail to pay their fair share. Both groups are criminals and should be treated as such.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 17:51:05 GMT 1
When it comes to take take take we should be condemning our MP's like a certain David Cameron who claimed £2.71 for a packet of folders. It always amazes me that Tory supporters always complain about benefit scroungers but fail to criticise those people and companies who avoid tax or fail to pay their fair share. Both groups are criminals and should be treated as such. but the system allows it, and despite what side of the political fence you sit on, there are good and bad in both parties. the ex prime minister Mr Blair being at the top of the t**t tree!!
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Post by shrewed46 on Jul 11, 2014 18:07:53 GMT 1
When it comes to take take take we should be condemning our MP's like a certain David Cameron who claimed £2.71 for a packet of folders. It always amazes me that Tory supporters always complain about benefit scroungers but fail to criticise those people and companies who avoid tax or fail to pay their fair share. Both groups are criminals and should be treated as such. but the system allows it, and despite what side of the political fence you sit on, there are good and bad in both parties. the ex prime minister Mr Blair being at the top of the t**t tree!! As with football it's all a matter of opinion mine is that Tony Blair was much greater PM than Margaret Thatcher who was far too divisive to be classed as a good PM never mind great.
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Jul 11, 2014 19:38:58 GMT 1
18% of people participated in the strike yesterday according to reports.
Trade unions in this country will soon be as dead as Bob Crow.
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Post by shrewsace on Jul 11, 2014 21:36:51 GMT 1
The problem is the Labour government made it to easy for people to claim benifits and become workshy. Did they, what did they do to make it easier than under the last Conservative government. Unemployment level and claimant level fell from 1997 when they took over, so they obviously didn't do a very good job of encouraging the workshy. Surely Maggie encouraged people to be 'work shy' given that unemployment was 3M+ on her watch (at a conservative - no pun intended - estimate). And wasn't it a Tory chancellor who said that high levels of unemployment were a 'price worth paying' for the 'success' of their economic plan.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 21:41:20 GMT 1
How on earth did a discussion about the strikes based on central government policy to hold back public sector pay as a clear policy, end with Downie withering on about the welfare state and waifs and strays in society.
Jesus Christ.
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Post by El Presidente on Jul 11, 2014 22:01:08 GMT 1
A good example to follow.
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Post by jamo on Jul 11, 2014 22:20:31 GMT 1
How on earth did a discussion about the strikes based on central government policy to hold back public sector pay as a clear policy, end with Downie withering on about the welfare state and waifs and strays in society. Jesus Christ. Now, now. Tolerance is always needed in debates such as this as by their very nature they are bound to attract the ill informed, the ignorant , opportunists and lunatics. It is for others to decide into which category Downie resides.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Jul 11, 2014 22:57:15 GMT 1
A problem is that people are seeing that work isn't a path to a decent life. If you want a decent life then don't get a job get a house and receive passive returns. Don't work to provide services or goods. Don't risk financial capital to combine it with other people's work to provide services or goods.
And the obscenity is that passive returns from ownership of assets is taxed more lightly than work.
So when people in the government use the shirker agenda against the unemployed there is actually a wider agenda to be addressed.
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