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Post by Bring Back The Loggerheads on Apr 10, 2014 13:08:59 GMT 1
You cannot ask people if the want change when they don't know what the change will be (most who want change only do so on the assumption it will mean a return to the three loggerheads and floreat salopia, there is no guarantee of this from the club at the moment)
You cannot have a "not bothered" option as it essentially another way of saying stick with what we've got. If you don't care, don't vote. Simple.
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Post by wiseone on Apr 10, 2014 13:33:55 GMT 1
A few questions... If this is a true rebrand are we just looking at the badge or other contentious issues e.g. club colours, nick name etc. If it is the later then we could use this exercise as a true piece of market research finding out what the fan base view as being truly representative of STFC, e.g. the loggerheads, lions,the river loop, blue and amber , white kit, red away kit, the initials gm for the ground. I think that something that would also be important is to know the real buying habits of fans. Us old folk may support the but how much would we really buy on a year by year basis? Knowing the view of those who either buy for themselves or others on a regular basis can back up the emotional viewpoint with the financial realities Who knows the kids could have the lion as a representative logo for their merchandise and once they are old enough to realise that that was not cool they can progress to the grown up loggerheads! This however would need professional resources and commitment - but it would surely help the club plan for the future and also identify targeted groups for both feedback on their activities and future changes.
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Post by mattmw on Apr 10, 2014 13:34:43 GMT 1
Would be useful to get a steer from the club on what the situation with copyright is. When clippy was introduced it was said that the club needed a copyrighted logo which the loggerheads couldn't be. I'm not convinced by that, and it's been well covered by the campaign. However we need a clear steer on whether the traditional loggerheads logo, or a new version of it is on the table as a viable new logo. If the loggerheads isn't on the table that's going to make discussions about replacing the badge hard. Anything is better than the clip art tat but would hate to see us go through all this and end up with something equally poor from a design point of view and not reflecting the clubs history.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 10, 2014 14:15:07 GMT 1
You cannot ask people if the want change when they don't know what the change will be (most who want change only do so on the assumption it will mean a return to the three loggerheads and floreat salopia, there is no guarantee of this from the club at the moment) I think we can. The current badge is a mess. Its a clip art lion. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the club nor its history (or that of the town and county it represents). Its not that its a crap badge. Its that its a crap badge which has nothing to do with the club. Therefore, I think there is no issue asking people if they want to see it gone (without providing an alternative at this stage). Like I have said in the past, getting the Loggerheads back would be great. But first and foremost, the most important thing is getting rid of clip art and introducing something that actually represents the club in some way. Whether that would be the Loggerheads or not, that's something to be decided upon if we do see a groundswell to get rid of the current badge.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 10, 2014 14:21:28 GMT 1
Dave My point was largely about the fact that IF people are not bothered, they are hardly likely to go to the trouble of voting just to tell us so. They will simply be No Shows. I hadn't realised we were "forcing" people to vote (as you mention in your scenario 1. Would be quite interested in how we do that. Maybe threaten them that they'll have to sit next to Mallet next season unless they vote ). Maybe you are thinking the vote will be a simple poll on a matchday where canvassers are buttoN-holing people on the Oteley Road for their views? That's the only scenario I can think of where you are likely to "force" people who are not bothered into expressing an opinion - in which case I understand your thinking behind having 3 options. But for reasons outlined elsewhere on the thread, I think that approach is potentially open to abuse so I would prefer to see a controlled poll based on the supporters database and a secure voting process. And if we do that (where by definition only people who have a firm opinion would bother to vote) then I think a clear 2 way choice is cleanest and simplest. Just my views. I did not mean force to vote, I mean forced to choose one otpion that does not represent their view. There is almost always a "none of the above" option for a reason. The club will want a certain amount of fans to be a representative sample. We want everyone to vote, for the sample size to be big enough. Not minding either way is as valid an option as wanting one or the other. We want that option to be represented within the results. The hypothesis I would test is that no-one actually wants clippy but that some people don't mind what the badge is. That is not a vote of confidence in clippy, but would give a much larger "no change" vote if they are only given a stay or change option as they would stay because they don't mind, not becausethey like it. Lots of people have very stonrg opinions that they are not bothered. Almost all of the criticism of the campaign has come not from people who like Clippy but from people who don't think it is a big issue. They are the ones on every badge thread telling people to get over it. I have never, ever heard anyone say they actually like Clippy, but rather that they don't think it is a priority. If it turns out that lots of people want a change and the rest are not bothered you have got a far stronger case to be able to change, because not bothered is not a vote against changing, or for staying. But if you don;t give them the option you force them to vote for staying with the current badge.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 10, 2014 14:28:15 GMT 1
You cannot ask people if the want change when they don't know what the change will be (most who want change only do so on the assumption it will mean a return to the three loggerheads and floreat salopia, there is no guarantee of this from the club at the moment) You cannot have a "not bothered" option as it essentially another way of saying stick with what we've got. If you don't care, don't vote. Simple. The best you can go down is asking if they support a process by which the badge is changed in consultation with supporters, including a vote on final designs, or something like that. Unless you make the question a return to a badge which incorporates the loggerheads. We know that a future badge is not going to be a heraldic shield Loggerheads like we used to have. I have covered the "not bothered" bit earlier - we want as many people to vote, lots of people don't care - that opinion is as valid as any other. But it is important we split up those who don't care and those who actually want to keep clippy, as that is very different things.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2014 15:44:05 GMT 1
I think the first question is simple.
Do you want to replace the current Club badge with a badge that strongly indentifies with the Club, the town, county, our heritage and identity?
The hard questions come later.
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Post by El Huracán!!!! on Apr 10, 2014 17:26:51 GMT 1
Not a bad shout Nicko.... no specific but clear enough to set out that there is an aim at the end of this, not just the replacement of the badge we have but to replace it with something that there is a purpose behind (leaving out the mention of loggerhead, shields, river loops, what it actually says)
Keep it coming lads great stuff... this is one thread I can guarantee is getting printed off!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 16:59:45 GMT 1
What's going on here? The vote surely is to confine the clip art Lion to the bin and replace it with The Loggerheads . The heraldic version which represents Shrewsbury Town not some dreamt up Harry Potter version or suchlike . Otherwise we could end up with three bloody dragons. Do you want to replace the Lion thing with The Loggerheads ? NOT Do you want to replace the Lion with a badge which strongly identifies with the club, the Town, the County etc, etc, etc. If we go down this route we could end up with a bloody Shrew or a Loop or a Castle or even Charles Darwin riding a bloody Loggerhead.
The campaign is Bring Back The Loggerheads . Nothing else , The Loggerheads .
I fear that anything which dilutes the campaign will play straight into the clubs hands and we will end up with the clip art Lion or something far worse.
Let's keep it simple lads please , no need to confuse the issue at this stage .
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 11, 2014 17:09:43 GMT 1
STFC have had more than one incarnation of the loggerheads as the badge.
And it does need to be commercially protected.
The question of a round badge compared to a shield comes up too.
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Post by Bring Back The Loggerheads on Apr 11, 2014 19:13:06 GMT 1
STFC have had more than one incarnation of the loggerheads as the badge. And it does need to be commercially protected. The question of a round badge compared to a shield comes up too. Exactly, there are so many permutations a change could entail, better to get settled on a good alternative(s) before asking people whether they want it to be adopted as the club crest. People can't make any kind of informed decision without knowing what the alternative actually is! I would vote yes for change only on the assumption (for that's all it is) that it would mean a return to the loggerheads, anything else would be pointless and would set back a return to the loggerheads indefinitely.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 20:55:58 GMT 1
What's going on here? The vote surely is to confine the clip art Lion to the bin and replace it with The Loggerheads . The heraldic version which represents Shrewsbury Town not some dreamt up Harry Potter version or suchlike . Otherwise we could end up with three bloody dragons. Do you want to replace the Lion thing with The Loggerheads ? NOT Do you want to replace the Lion with a badge which strongly identifies with the club, the Town, the County etc, etc, etc. If we go down this route we could end up with a bloody Shrew or a Loop or a Castle or even Charles Darwin riding a bloody Loggerhead. The campaign is Bring Back The Loggerheads . Nothing else , The Loggerheads . I fear that anything which dilutes the campaign will play straight into the clubs hands and we will end up with the clip art Lion or something far worse. Let's keep it simple lads please , no need to confuse the issue at this stage . Well no – like I said the question is simple and it potentially bin’s the lion. Like I said after that it becomes difficult as alluded to by TBH with the need of the new badge to be protected. In that way it isn’t simple because it is about how the Loggerheads are presented. And of course the Loggerheads represents the town and county and I personally do indentify with it because it’s tattooed on my calf.
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Post by atcham jack on Apr 11, 2014 21:19:07 GMT 1
3 dragons sound unusual. loggerheads is our towns tradition. and that is exactly what roland should provide, not forgetting the floreat salopia. when you mentioned 3 dragons, i imagined "JT" would have leaped in!
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Post by thesensationaljt on Apr 11, 2014 21:19:32 GMT 1
What's going on here? The vote surely is to confine the clip art Lion to the bin and replace it with The Loggerheads . The heraldic version which represents Shrewsbury Town not some dreamt up Harry Potter version or suchlike . Otherwise we could end up with three bloody dragons. Do you want to replace the Lion thing with The Loggerheads ? NOT Do you want to replace the Lion with a badge which strongly identifies with the club, the Town, the County etc, etc, etc. If we go down this route we could end up with a bloody Shrew or a Loop or a Castle or even Charles Darwin riding a bloody Loggerhead. The campaign is Bring Back The Loggerheads . Nothing else , The Loggerheads . I fear that anything which dilutes the campaign will play straight into the clubs hands and we will end up with the clip art Lion or something far worse. Let's keep it simple lads please , no need to confuse the issue at this stage . And of course the Loggerheads represents the town and county and I personally do indentify with it because it’s tattooed on my calf.
Didn't realise you were a farmer, nick.
Any road up, Dan Davies did a cracking badge with the loggerheads and the river loop on it. But in simple truth, the club aren't interested in doing anything other than fannying us around by playing games.
Their loss on merchandise...........or is it ours?
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Post by atcham jack on Apr 11, 2014 21:20:39 GMT 1
and here he is!
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Post by atcham jack on Apr 11, 2014 21:26:31 GMT 1
tis all our loss. the club shop suffers from lack of sales because of crap unsaleable goods. one almost wonders if rw is keen to keep clippy because he thinks it attracts youngsters to the club. it is those same youngsters who should be heducated about the very history and tradition of our and their historic premier borough of england. it became englands premier borough when the wise? burgesses of shrewsbury turned down king henry v111's charter to make shrewsbury a city in the 16th century.
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Post by thesensationaljt on Apr 11, 2014 21:41:28 GMT 1
tis all our loss. the club shop suffers from lack of sales because of cr@p unsaleable goods. one almost wonders if rw is keen to keep clippy because he thinks it attracts youngsters to the club. it is those same youngsters who should be heducated about the very history and tradition of our and their historic premier borough of england. it became englands premier borough when the wise? burgesses of shrewsbury turned down king henry v111's charter to make shrewsbury a city in the 16th century. I believe Oliver Cromwell set up a Supporters Parliament.
They're still waiting for him to report back.
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Post by atcham jack on Apr 12, 2014 7:56:13 GMT 1
suspect OC left a certain mr farage to do the job for him
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 8:15:38 GMT 1
Why can't we just use the same method as is used for voting on kit designs... that way, anyone that wants to vote, can do, and its accessible to all existing 'supporters'
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 8:17:34 GMT 1
tis all our loss. the club shop suffers from lack of sales because of cr@p unsaleable goods. one almost wonders if rw is keen to keep clippy because he thinks it attracts youngsters to the club. it is those same youngsters who should be heducated about the very history and tradition of our and their historic premier borough of england. it became englands premier borough when the wise? burgesses of shrewsbury turned down king henry v111's charter to make shrewsbury a city in the 16th century. But the club also loses out on potential sales because the product range is crap and the product quality (I mean a screen printed sponsor logo, honestly!), not always because of the badge.... I don't think the shop and the badge can always be used as a reason for poor sales.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 9:15:32 GMT 1
And of course the Loggerheads represents the town and county and I personally do indentify with it because it’s tattooed on my calf.
Didn't realise you were a farmer, nick.
Any road up, Dan Davies did a cracking badge with the loggerheads and the river loop on it. But in simple truth, the club aren't interested in doing anything other than fannying us around by playing games.
Their loss on merchandise...........or is it ours?
Chuckle out loud. The Loggerheads inside the loop of the river is my favourite all time badge and nails it for me. The loss on mechanise is all our loss.
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Post by suttonshrew on Apr 12, 2014 15:13:28 GMT 1
Hi guys this is excellent and exactly what I hoped it would bring and that's open discussion
Few things:
A: this isn't a bring back the loggerheads vote. This is a do we want a change? If so what do we as fans want. Now I'm not saying the fans won't choose the loggerheads but that's up to us to decide
B: we can use the club data base I believe so this certainly for me has to be part of the strategy. Would people be willing to give up a pre match drink in the pub to help canvass people at the ground? Maybe we could do a b&a or retro day early next season and go all out to canvass the fan base both outside the ground and in the concourses......
C: any vote has to include a supporter number as this is transparent. How do we make it transparent for those who don't have a SN? This is going to be difficult and open to question but I think the club are just going to have to trust us on that.
Keep it coming guys, some great ideas. Think a get together is required so I'll try and get some dates together for this.
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Post by thesensationaljt on Apr 13, 2014 22:28:58 GMT 1
Hi guys this is excellent and exactly what I hoped it would bring and that's open discussion Few things: A: this isn't a bring back the loggerheads vote. This is a do we want a change? If so what do we as fans want. Now I'm not saying the fans won't choose the loggerheads but that's up to us to decide I don't remember being asked if I wanted a comedy lion.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 13:33:42 GMT 1
Hi guys this is excellent and exactly what I hoped it would bring and that's open discussion Few things: A: this isn't a bring back the loggerheads vote. This is a do we want a change? If so what do we as fans want. Now I'm not saying the fans won't choose the loggerheads but that's up to us to decide Sorry suttonshrew but to my mind this is exactly what I would like it to be , a Bring back the Loggerheads campaign which means a change from that clip art Lion . Confine that thing to the bin for all time. My biggest fear is that we will end up with a number of choices which will split the vote completely leaving the club a "get out of jail"card which they will use to say " well , the vote isn't conclusive so we may as well stick with what we have, thank you for your participation ". The argument has always been between the Lion thing and the Loggerheads and I feel that if we have a straight choice between the two we will see the Loggerheads return . Once that is out of the way we can then decide on the Loggerheads design , badge , shield whatever. All this copyright business is just smoke and mirrors by the club . Anyway , this is my view and I fully appreciate that others may well have a different opinion . It is not a question of ditch the clip art Lion and replace it with an alternative . Keep the pressure on the club , Bring Back the Loggerheads .
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Post by champagneprince on Apr 14, 2014 20:57:50 GMT 1
Agree. Bring back the Loggerheads, get rid of that clip art lion that clearly has c*nt tattooed on its chin.
Give us 5 choices of badge (all loggerheads). Run it for a month, as soon as 500 people vote look for a 70% preference, if you get it then that's the one. If not, then replace with another 5 designs and re-vote. If it reaches 70%......
If still no decision after 2 months then pick the highest % of the 10 designs.
All over in 2 months, it would be ready to put on any new kit which will be with us in November.
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Post by shrewd67 on Apr 18, 2014 9:01:12 GMT 1
If we are going to ask people whether they want change, would it not be better to be clear what exactly that change would be first? A better way of doing things would be to first decide upon an alternative, and then hold a vote as to whether that alternative should be adopted. For example: This. Let's not over complicate it. It's a simple question and this form addresses it clearly and succinctly with only genuine supporters being canvassed.
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Post by atcham jack on Apr 18, 2014 9:12:28 GMT 1
i was not asked for my opinion either on a cross eyed clarence or imbecile lion. the bring back the loggerheads is on a roll with a head of steam behind it. anything else other than a 3 loggerheads badge with a floreat salopia is totally alien to me. and i am unshakeable in this full stop. any other badge will be an insult to the history of our ancient borough and great club.
pity the chairman was so badly advised 7 years ago, and that he and us have had to put up with town's bad luck for 7 years now.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 19, 2014 9:27:47 GMT 1
If its to be a choice between the clip art and the Loggerheads then you need to ask the club whether a return to the Loggerheads is an option. Otherwise there is no point in asking the question if they aren't prepared to return to the Loggerheads (because of copyright reasons).
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Post by suttonshrew on Apr 19, 2014 20:32:20 GMT 1
whilst my choice would be the loggerheads, it is ultimately up to the fan base to decide. the club have asked the sp to get a vote on a rebrand and what the fans would want in a badge they havent agreed that this is a lion v loggerheads vote. whilst im fully behind the loggerheads campaign this has to be done the right way and this has to be done the way it should have been when we left gm and thats full fans consultation on our next badge, dont let the campaign become a obstacle to the fans vote because it will detract from what we are trying to do. If the fans want the loggerheads back thats what they will vote for........
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Post by Bring Back The Loggerheads on Apr 20, 2014 21:02:07 GMT 1
If the fans want the loggerheads back thats what they will vote for........ But is there a guarantee that will be an option when a change is voted on?
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