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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2014 10:45:21 GMT 1
Nobody, but we still ought to try! I'm not saying the club hasn't raised the possibility with him and his agent, I'm sure it has, but that's not the same thing as actually offering him a longer or improved contract to sign. Last summer would have been a good time to do this, for example - a feel good factor about us staying up fresh in the mind, and him an established part of the first team. Clearly the club does do some behind the scenes negotiation, but it's very, very rare for us to see a senior pro, or even a youngster, sign an improved contract at any time other than the summer. Other clubs do this as a matter of course and, quite frankly, if you compare our record on player recruitment and retention to that of most other clubs recently, the comparison is not a favourable one!Completely agree. Normally when the contract debate comes up there's people who will give three responses as to why the club shouldnt negotiate earlier: 1) There's no guarantee he will say yes - A valid argument but Id counter that by it at least it gives the impression he is wanted by STFC. If we arent offering him anything and other clubs come sniffing around then his head is going to get turned. If he does turn us down then at least we have longer to negotiate or eye up a replacement 2) We may tie them down but they get injured and/or a a failure - Always a risk but isnt a new risk and has been the case for many, many teams. Plus as he is already a player at STFC so you'd like to think they have at least a bit of knowledge on the playes ability 3) It may unsettle other players - Like point 2 this is not a new risk and is up the the manager to manage. In every organisation there are people with more ability who are paid better and are viewed as more important than other staff, thats a fact of life and again is up to the powers that be to manager The problem is we seem to deal with everything so late. We offer contracts in May, they inevitably get turned down in June/July and we are then trying to get replacements when lots of the players elsewhere have been snapped up. The James Collins episode is the best example of that and one we have never recovered from Ha see above.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Apr 13, 2014 11:08:29 GMT 1
Nobody, but we still ought to try! I'm not saying the club hasn't raised the possibility with him and his agent, I'm sure it has, but that's not the same thing as actually offering him a longer or improved contract to sign. Last summer would have been a good time to do this, for example - a feel good factor about us staying up fresh in the mind, and him an established part of the first team. Clearly the club does do some behind the scenes negotiation, but it's very, very rare for us to see a senior pro, or even a youngster, sign an improved contract at any time other than the summer. Other clubs do this as a matter of course and, quite frankly, if you compare our record on player recruitment and retention to that of most other clubs recently, the comparison is not a favourable one!Completely agree. Normally when the contract debate comes up there's people who will give three responses as to why the club shouldnt negotiate earlier: 1) There's no guarantee he will say yes - A valid argument but Id counter that by it at least it gives the impression he is wanted by STFC. If we arent offering him anything and other clubs come sniffing around then his head is going to get turned. If he does turn us down then at least we have longer to negotiate or eye up a replacement 2) We may tie them down but they get injured and/or a a failure - Always a risk but isnt a new risk and has been the case for many, many teams. Plus as he is already a player at STFC so you'd like to think they have at least a bit of knowledge on the playes ability 3) It may unsettle other players - Like point 2 this is not a new risk and is up the the manager to manage. In every organisation there are people with more ability who are paid better and are viewed as more important than other staff, thats a fact of life and again is up to the powers that be to manager The problem is we seem to deal with everything so late. We offer contracts in May, they inevitably get turned down in June/July and we are then trying to get replacements when lots of the players elsewhere have been snapped up. The James Collins episode is the best example of that and one we have never recovered from Totally agree it's utter lunacy Somehow other clubs are able to offer players new deals earlier. I don't believe option 3 either. Some players get renewals doesn't mean it unsettles others just as likely it might give them a kick up the arse to try and earn a new deal Besides not having players turned down means they'll be distracted by talking to other clubs and agent about what happens in the summer and where they're playing
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Post by stfcfan87 on Apr 13, 2014 11:13:02 GMT 1
Nobody, but we still ought to try! I'm not saying the club hasn't raised the possibility with him and his agent, I'm sure it has, but that's not the same thing as actually offering him a longer or improved contract to sign. Last summer would have been a good time to do this, for example - a feel good factor about us staying up fresh in the mind, and him an established part of the first team. Clearly the club does do some behind the scenes negotiation, but it's very, very rare for us to see a senior pro, or even a youngster, sign an improved contract at any time other than the summer. Other clubs do this as a matter of course and, quite frankly, if you compare our record on player recruitment and retention to that of most other clubs recently, the comparison is not a favourable one!I don’t think it’s that simple it’s all very well offering players longer and improved contracts when they are in form, but we don’t know what the future holds. A good example is Grandison. If we had offered him an improved long term contract we’d have a player on our hands who is nowhere his pre – injury levels. Dave Mac is on a three year contract and he’s not a regular. A Club like ours can’t afford to take the risk and the accounts bear this out. Accounts also pretty much show we need to sell players now and again to balance the books and give us the cash reserves we need. Who have we got who we could actually sell?? Most of this squad is on loan or out of contract so that'll be another summer without transfer money coming in
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2014 11:18:51 GMT 1
I don’t think it’s that simple it’s all very well offering players longer and improved contracts when they are in form, but we don’t know what the future holds. A good example is Grandison. If we had offered him an improved long term contract we’d have a player on our hands who is nowhere his pre – injury levels. Dave Mac is on a three year contract and he’s not a regular. A Club like ours can’t afford to take the risk and the accounts bear this out. Accounts also pretty much show we need to sell players now and again to balance the books and give us the cash reserves we need. Who have we got who we could actually sell?? Most of this squad is on loan or out of contract so that'll be another summer without transfer money coming in True. Our only short – term sellable assets at the moment are Connor and Ryan. Quite honestly they are nowhere near Dave Edwards or Joe Hart value.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Apr 13, 2014 11:25:44 GMT 1
Accounts also pretty much show we need to sell players now and again to balance the books and give us the cash reserves we need. Who have we got who we could actually sell?? Most of this squad is on loan or out of contract so that'll be another summer without transfer money coming in True. Our only short – term sellable assets at the moment are Connor and Ryan. Quite honestly they are nowhere near Dave Edwards or Joe Hart value. If a few others were tied down they might be Probably true about Hart and Edwards although neither of those had played higher than division 2 when we sold them, so could have been risky signings
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2014 11:56:21 GMT 1
Nobody, but we still ought to try! I'm not saying the club hasn't raised the possibility with him and his agent, I'm sure it has, but that's not the same thing as actually offering him a longer or improved contract to sign. Last summer would have been a good time to do this, for example - a feel good factor about us staying up fresh in the mind, and him an established part of the first team. Clearly the club does do some behind the scenes negotiation, but it's very, very rare for us to see a senior pro, or even a youngster, sign an improved contract at any time other than the summer. Other clubs do this as a matter of course and, quite frankly, if you compare our record on player recruitment and retention to that of most other clubs recently, the comparison is not a favourable one!I don’t think it’s that simple it’s all very well offering players longer and improved contracts when they are in form, but we don’t know what the future holds. A good example is Grandison. If we had offered him an improved long term contract we’d have a player on our hands who is nowhere his pre – injury levels. Dave Mac is on a three year contract and he’s not a regular. A Club like ours can’t afford to take the risk and the accounts bear this out. So what are you saying Nick, we should only ever have loan players or offer 1 year contracts at the end of each season? If we go down that approach I can only see us struggling with no continuity on the field, no saleable assets and fans feeling more detached from the club
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2014 12:07:56 GMT 1
I don’t think it’s that simple it’s all very well offering players longer and improved contracts when they are in form, but we don’t know what the future holds. A good example is Grandison. If we had offered him an improved long term contract we’d have a player on our hands who is nowhere his pre – injury levels. Dave Mac is on a three year contract and he’s not a regular. A Club like ours can’t afford to take the risk and the accounts bear this out. So what are you saying Nick, we should only ever have loan players or offer 1 year contracts at the end of each season? If we go down that approach I can only see us struggling with no continuity on the field, no saleable assets and fans feeling more detached from the club No what I’m saying is that with the current financial situation at the Club it seems reasonable to wait and see where we are and what our priorities are. We could offer long – term improved contracts to players on 3rd tier wages but end up in the 4th tier anyway while having little to offer a decent pair of strikers. I have also offered two examples were recent experiences may suggest a cautious approach is prudent. Like I say I suspect things are a little bit more complicated then causally suggesting we enter into contract talks with senior players without really knowing what we can offer them before next seasons budget has been set. I really think some people need to a reality check on what type of Club we (still) are.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2014 12:24:26 GMT 1
My point Nick is there are quite a few clubs who dont know what league they will be in yet seem capable of negotiating with players. The argument is now we cant offer contracts because we could get relegated whereas in L2 it was because we may get promoted. Yes it is over-simplifying things but I stuggle to see why other clubs can do it but why we cant.
I have no illusions about us as a club, we are a club who had to drop to the conference to become a big fish, at L2 level we are not seen as a big club and at L1 level we are a small club. But thats also because we have been below this tier for the last 15 years or so. Id argue that we should not have the belief that we dont belong at this level. I know it may sound arrogant but when you see clubs like Macclesfield & Dagenham at this level you believe its not sustainable but with our fanbase and infrastructure we should be able to. It looks like we cant so therefore the question is why.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2014 16:19:37 GMT 1
My point Nick is there are quite a few clubs who dont know what league they will be in yet seem capable of negotiating with players. The argument is now we cant offer contracts because we could get relegated whereas in L2 it was because we may get promoted. Yes it is over-simplifying things but I stuggle to see why other clubs can do it but why we cant. They’re the clubs that are probably in permanent financial crisis or have substantial backing.
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Post by lenny on Apr 13, 2014 16:54:47 GMT 1
My point Nick is there are quite a few clubs who dont know what league they will be in yet seem capable of negotiating with players. The argument is now we cant offer contracts because we could get relegated whereas in L2 it was because we may get promoted. Yes it is over-simplifying things but I stuggle to see why other clubs can do it but why we cant. They’re the clubs that are probably in permanent financial crisis or have substantial backing. Don't see why we couldn't go down Crewe's approach and back our youngsters with deals to make sure they don't end up leaving and us getting mugged off by tribunals.
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Post by markglasgow on Apr 13, 2014 17:36:02 GMT 1
They’re the clubs that are probably in permanent financial crisis or have substantial backing. Don't see why we couldn't go down Crewe's approach and back our youngsters with deals to make sure they don't end up leaving and us getting mugged off by tribunals. It's a two way street Lenny. Talented kids and their influential agents don't want to be tied down to 3 or 4 year contracts. Stick a 3 year deal under Bradshaw's nose and he'll bite your hand off. Offer that same deal to Ryan Woods perhaps a different story.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2014 17:43:39 GMT 1
I think a 3 year contract can be a real millstone for a club with our finances. However, having tried (allegedly) to keep the likes of Sharps, SCS, Wroe by offering them maybe more money but over short contracts, maybe it is the only way of keeping someone like Summerfield. It may be worth doing for one or two players who we may be able to build a squad around.
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Post by lenny on Apr 13, 2014 17:55:44 GMT 1
Don't see why we couldn't go down Crewe's approach and back our youngsters with deals to make sure they don't end up leaving and us getting mugged off by tribunals. It's a two way street Lenny. Talented kids and their influential agents don't want to be tied down to 3 or 4 year contracts. Stick a 3 year deal under Bradshaw's nose and he'll bite your hand off. Offer that same deal to Ryan Woods perhaps a different story. Of course, but any agent would be a fool to turn down a wage rise and extra security with a contract that already had a year left on it. Doesn't work out all the time, but Crewe are certainly a damn sight better at retaining their best youngsters and getting a good price when they leave than we are. Jacko said we're negotiating with Connor, and that's a nice start. I'd be quite surprised if Woods turned down a one year extension with a substantial pay rise (doubt he's earning much at all), and that would just give us the extra security.
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Post by spartan on Apr 13, 2014 17:57:41 GMT 1
Luke Summerfield is a very talented player, perfectly capable of meriting selection in a top-half League One side.Indeed,but for his injury history, he might still be playing at Championship level.We've missed him badly for many games.
The problem is that over his two seasons with us he's only started about 60% of games. So the question is can you, as manager, risk a 40% absence record? This is no criticism whatsover of Luke. I think he's brave to play in such a combative style given his history of fairly serious knocks.
It's an issue you can't ignore if you are thinking about a long-term contract in what will have to be a small squad.
I think it's a really tough call.
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Post by Liam on Apr 13, 2014 21:17:58 GMT 1
Nobody, but we still ought to try! I'm not saying the club hasn't raised the possibility with him and his agent, I'm sure it has, but that's not the same thing as actually offering him a longer or improved contract to sign. Last summer would have been a good time to do this, for example - a feel good factor about us staying up fresh in the mind, and him an established part of the first team. Clearly the club does do some behind the scenes negotiation, but it's very, very rare for us to see a senior pro, or even a youngster, sign an improved contract at any time other than the summer. Other clubs do this as a matter of course and, quite frankly, if you compare our record on player recruitment and retention to that of most other clubs recently, the comparison is not a favourable one!I don’t think it’s that simple it’s all very well offering players longer and improved contracts when they are in form, but we don’t know what the future holds. A good example is Grandison. If we had offered him an improved long term contract we’d have a player on our hands who is nowhere his pre – injury levels. Dave Mac is on a three year contract and he’s not a regular. A Club like ours can’t afford to take the risk and the accounts bear this out. We don't know what the future hold, but nor does any club at any level. This isn't a reason for any of them not to try to keep hold of their best players. The odd act of God in the form of a serious injury is always going to occur from time to time, but these will always represent a minority of cases. The argument about us not knowing what division we will be in and new contracts putting us at financial risk is not a valid one. Promotion and relegation clauses cover the club against this, and we already know the club employs these, due to the case of John Taylor ending up being our only player not to have one after he unilaterally negotiated his own contract. Furthermore, as others have said, with no players under long contracts, the club vastly reduces its saleable assets, something on which this season's accounts tell us it relies upon to break even. I am not proposing we offer all of our new signings 3 or 4 year contracts. Unless you're signing a global mega-star at the top level, that is clearly not feasible. What I am angry about is our repeated failure to offer extensions to our top performers during the season, something you repeatedly see done elsewhere. Yes, they might not sign, but this is where a bit of clever contractual negotiation can help. For example, a release clause, which will consist of a small but significant fee. Clubs of our size wouldn't be able or willing to pay it. Bigger clubs will, but we wouldn't be able to stop the player going to one of those in the close-season anyway. This way we could prevent the player from leaving for free to go to most clubs in our own division, but he could still be assured that signing the contract will not affect his potential career prospects, and we'd be guaranteed at least some kind of payment. It's only an example, and I know these things are far from simple, but I'm of the opinion that our failure to do this is going to cost us money rather than save us. Think when Chris Humphrey went to Motherwell, or when Taylor also nearly did, or when Ben Davies went to Notts County, or how unhappy the club was with what we got for Collins. Think of the insultingly small fee we'll get for Wildig if he chooses to leave at the end of the season, or of the sum of absolutely nothing we'll get for Summerfield.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Apr 13, 2014 23:35:01 GMT 1
So what are you saying Nick, we should only ever have loan players or offer 1 year contracts at the end of each season? If we go down that approach I can only see us struggling with no continuity on the field, no saleable assets and fans feeling more detached from the club No what I’m saying is that with the current financial situation at the Club it seems reasonable to wait and see where we are and what our priorities are. We could offer long – term improved contracts to players on 3rd tier wages but end up in the 4th tier anyway while having little to offer a decent pair of strikers. I have also offered two examples were recent experiences may suggest a cautious approach is prudent. Like I say I suspect things are a little bit more complicated then causally suggesting we enter into contract talks with senior players without really knowing what we can offer them before next seasons budget has been set. I really think some people need to a reality check on what type of Club we (still) are. We really offer 3rd tier wages to players? Do we? We signed Jones, Purdie, Winfield from mid to bottom of the division 2 clubs, Hall from a middle of the table division 2 club, Marsden & Anyon from non league - are you really saying these signings were played the average division 1 rate because if so I don't believe you
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Post by stfcfan87 on Apr 13, 2014 23:37:24 GMT 1
I don’t think it’s that simple it’s all very well offering players longer and improved contracts when they are in form, but we don’t know what the future holds. A good example is Grandison. If we had offered him an improved long term contract we’d have a player on our hands who is nowhere his pre – injury levels. Dave Mac is on a three year contract and he’s not a regular. A Club like ours can’t afford to take the risk and the accounts bear this out. We don't know what the future hold, but nor does any club at any level. This isn't a reason for any of them not to try to keep hold of their best players. The odd act of God in the form of a serious injury is always going to occur from time to time, but these will always represent a minority of cases. The argument about us not knowing what division we will be in and new contracts putting us at financial risk is not a valid one. Promotion and relegation clauses cover the club against this, and we already know the club employs these, due to the case of John Taylor ending up being our only player not to have one after he unilaterally negotiated his own contract. Furthermore, as others have said, with no players under long contracts, the club vastly reduces its saleable assets, something on which this season's accounts tell us it relies upon to break even. I am not proposing we offer all of our new signings 3 or 4 year contracts. Unless you're signing a global mega-star at the top level, that is clearly not feasible. What I am angry about is our repeated failure to offer extensions to our top performers during the season, something you repeatedly see done elsewhere. Yes, they might not sign, but this is where a bit of clever contractual negotiation can help. For example, a release clause, which will consist of a small but significant fee. Clubs of our size wouldn't be able or willing to pay it. Bigger clubs will, but we wouldn't be able to stop the player going to one of those in the close-season anyway. This way we could prevent the player from leaving for free to go to most clubs in our own division, but he could still be assured that signing the contract will not affect his potential career prospects, and we'd be guaranteed at least some kind of payment. It's only an example, and I know these things are far from simple, but I'm of the opinion that our failure to do this is going to cost us money rather than save us. Think when Chris Humphrey went to Motherwell, or when Taylor also nearly did, or when Ben Davies went to Notts County, or how unhappy the club was with what we got for Collins. Think of the insultingly small fee we'll get for Wildig if he chooses to leave at the end of the season, or of the sum of absolutely nothing we'll get for Summerfield. The part about not knowing what division we're in for not offering new contracts is utter bullsh*t. You put safeguards in place, i.e. if you go down 20% reduction. Not hard to do.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 7:16:07 GMT 1
I don’t think it’s that simple it’s all very well offering players longer and improved contracts when they are in form, but we don’t know what the future holds. A good example is Grandison. If we had offered him an improved long term contract we’d have a player on our hands who is nowhere his pre – injury levels. Dave Mac is on a three year contract and he’s not a regular. A Club like ours can’t afford to take the risk and the accounts bear this out. We don't know what the future hold, but nor does any club at any level. This isn't a reason for any of them not to try to keep hold of their best players. The odd act of God in the form of a serious injury is always going to occur from time to time, but these will always represent a minority of cases. The argument about us not knowing what division we will be in and new contracts putting us at financial risk is not a valid one. Of course it is. Remember this Club has either been pushing for promotion or fighting relegation for past several seasons. Come April the Club has never been a 100% sure where it’s going to be. But look we can sit here all day talking about this. The truth is nobody really knows what goes on or how the Club goes about its business regarding contracts because that’s between the Club and player. What we do know is that RW isn’t going to break the bank.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 7:17:52 GMT 1
No what I’m saying is that with the current financial situation at the Club it seems reasonable to wait and see where we are and what our priorities are. We could offer long – term improved contracts to players on 3rd tier wages but end up in the 4th tier anyway while having little to offer a decent pair of strikers. I have also offered two examples were recent experiences may suggest a cautious approach is prudent. Like I say I suspect things are a little bit more complicated then causally suggesting we enter into contract talks with senior players without really knowing what we can offer them before next seasons budget has been set. I really think some people need to a reality check on what type of Club we (still) are. We really offer 3rd tier wages to players? Do we? We signed Jones, Purdie, Winfield from mid to bottom of the division 2 clubs, Hall from a middle of the table division 2 club, Marsden & Anyon from non league - are you really saying these signings were played the average division 1 rate because if so I don't believe you According to something posted on here we have the 17th biggest budget in the league.
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Post by bobbytheblock19er on Apr 14, 2014 7:35:50 GMT 1
I think you should tie your best players up on contracts if you can, like weale, summerfield, jacobson and wildig. We will spend all june waiting for answers of these players (like every summer). I really worry what sort of team we are going to put together next season with so many out of contract and set to leave.
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Post by Liam on Apr 14, 2014 10:46:32 GMT 1
We don't know what the future hold, but nor does any club at any level. This isn't a reason for any of them not to try to keep hold of their best players. The odd act of God in the form of a serious injury is always going to occur from time to time, but these will always represent a minority of cases. The argument about us not knowing what division we will be in and new contracts putting us at financial risk is not a valid one. Of course it is. Remember this Club has either been pushing for promotion or fighting relegation for past several seasons. Come April the Club has never been a 100% sure where it’s going to be. But look we can sit here all day talking about this. The truth is nobody really knows what goes on or how the Club goes about its business regarding contracts because that’s between the Club and player. What we do know is that RW isn’t going to break the bank. I think you're right that we'll go in circles with this, and you're definitely right that we're unlikely to ever know the details of what really goes on behind the scenes. However, once again, a promotion/relegation clause covers the club against the cost of being relegated - you simply insert one into the player's contact saying that wages will go down or up if the club does.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Apr 14, 2014 10:58:51 GMT 1
We really offer 3rd tier wages to players? Do we? We signed Jones, Purdie, Winfield from mid to bottom of the division 2 clubs, Hall from a middle of the table division 2 club, Marsden & Anyon from non league - are you really saying these signings were played the average division 1 rate because if so I don't believe you According to something posted on here we have the 17th biggest budget in the league. Maybe the case but parry, weale and Tam were signed from higher profile clubs and will be on the highest wages. Can't believe the players signed from the likes of Aldershot will be on anywhere near the average division 1 wage
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 12:38:20 GMT 1
Don't see why we couldn't go down Crewe's approach and back our youngsters with deals to make sure they don't end up leaving and us getting mugged off by tribunals. It's a two way street Lenny. Talented kids and their influential agents don't want to be tied down to 3 or 4 year contracts. Stick a 3 year deal under Bradshaw's nose and he'll bite your hand off. Offer that same deal to Ryan Woods perhaps a different story. Im not advocating 3 or 4 year deals, those contracts are unheard of nowadays with the exception of the Ronaldo's/Messi's etc. What Im saying is why mid-season cant we look at who is out of contract at the end of the season and look to offer the players we want to keep an extention, for say 18 months. But anyway Im guessing we wont change our approach and will also never know why we go with that approach. I just hope for Jacko's sake that the players who are going to go make up their mind early so he can have time to build a squad ready for pre-season, rather than having to use the actual season for trials and improving fitness.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 19:50:30 GMT 1
Accounts also pretty much show we need to sell players now and again to balance the books and give us the cash reserves we need. Who have we got who we could actually sell?? Most of this squad is on loan or out of contract so that'll be another summer without transfer money coming in True. Our only short – term sellable assets at the moment are Connor and Ryan. Quite honestly they are nowhere near Dave Edwards or Joe Hart value. Disagree, we have Callum Burton and the other Goalie that would both fetch considerable money
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 7:03:44 GMT 1
True. Our only short – term sellable assets at the moment are Connor and Ryan. Quite honestly they are nowhere near Dave Edwards or Joe Hart value. Disagree, we have Callum Burton and the other Goalie that would both fetch considerable money They are long term assets.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 16:03:44 GMT 1
It's gone under the radar a bit (with the news about Burton and Lewis) but one of our 1st year goalkeeping scholars has been doing well on loan at Watford.
The Next Rowley
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