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Post by Shrewed on Mar 27, 2011 15:28:22 GMT 1
Having read your very considered views Shrewace can you now tell us what Labours alternative is? Also why so negative? THe cuts might just work and we will all be better off in 3 years time One more question for you. Just how much did the demonstration including transport and police etc cost? Jonah, unfortunately there will not be the chance for us to get rid of the ConDems for another 4 years, it is the job in our parliamentary system for the official Opposition is to constructively oppose the government, The Labour Party does not have to announce it's policies for the years 2015 to 2020 until the election is called exactly like the boys DAvid and George said nothing about policies even during the election campaign. We now have a government that is determined to destroy the social fabric of our society for ideological reasons. Take from the weakest and give to the wealthy how else would you describe a policy of reducing pensioners winter fuel payments even Cleggie does not seem to understand when a cut is a cut.
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Post by WindsorShrew on Mar 27, 2011 15:39:13 GMT 1
I see Mr Miliband said cuts had to be made yesterday in Hyde Park and was heckled for it. What he is doing wrong for me is condemning everything the government does yet will not lay open any alternative route - had he done so with credible alternatives surely his case (the lefts) would be strengthened. Frankly at present it just sounds like cheap sniping...don't get me wrong if Labour have some good ideas lets hear them. As Ed says he doesn't have to and most certainly will not until there are some tangible results from the present swathe of cuts. Finally the greatest con trick in history marches on as Labour continue to deny any responsibility for the mess we are in. ..
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Post by Shrewed on Mar 27, 2011 16:00:55 GMT 1
I see Mr Miliband said cuts had to be made yesterday in Hyde Park and was heckled for it. What he is doing wrong for me is condemning everything the government does yet will not lay open any alternative route - had he done so with credible alternatives surely his case (the lefts) would be strengthened. Frankly at present it just sounds like cheap sniping...don't get me wrong if Labour have some good ideas lets hear them. As Ed says he doesn't have to and most certainly will not until there are some tangible results from the present swathe of cuts. Finally the greatest con trick in history marches on as Labour continue to deny any responsibility for the mess we are in. .. No the greatest con trick in history is the 3 stooges continual claim that the last Labour Government was solely responsible for the world recession. There is no doubt that Gordon and co made mistakes but sometimes its worth reflecting on what may have happened if George had been Chancellor during the financial crisis remember the 80's and early 90's. It is worth comparing growth in the USA where there have been no cut backs to the lack of growth here where the cuts have hardly started to have more than a psycological impact.
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Post by WindsorShrew on Mar 27, 2011 16:29:59 GMT 1
In all honesty I don't think there are many who understand the current situation Ed...it is hugely complex and of course is twisted by those in power or seeking it to suit. Cameron stating the situation is all down to Labour may be wide of the mark but not for me as ludicrous as Labour denying any responsibility for it. So for the vast majority of us all we can do is form opinions. Anyway Comrade James has assured me he behaved yesterday and was surrounded by love....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 16:36:08 GMT 1
Finally the greatest con trick in history marches on as Labour continue to deny any responsibility for the mess we are in. .. Almost as big a con trick as the tories blaming the whole thing on public sector workers whilst allowing the private and financial sectors to get away almost scott free. come on windy you are brighter than that.
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Post by WindsorShrew on Mar 27, 2011 16:40:31 GMT 1
What you have failed to notice Pab is that the thread is going quite well with some good input....
Like the proverbial bad penny you turn up and start the sniping...typical of you I might add.
Please go away.
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Post by grinfish on Mar 27, 2011 16:43:32 GMT 1
More like two snipers camping in deep cover on the same map, with neither able to get a clean shot at the other for the kill, I'd say.
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Post by jamo on Mar 27, 2011 17:38:14 GMT 1
Mate, calling someone gullible is in my opinion quite offensive, by saying that you are assuming that I have taken what is fed by the media as an accurate accute of actions as yesterday. Really ? Then you are much more sensitive and shy, retiring person than I assummed. Make a complaint to the moderators if you think I have over stepped the mark, I am sure they will then be able to inflict some osrt of punishment on me ....alternatively grow up.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 17:39:13 GMT 1
Met up with a lass at oxford circus at 19:30 yesterday and trubdled off to Poland street, no agro, no violence nothing (although my friend did phone me and say the bbc were reporting that it was all kicking off around us?!)
Not a bad effort for the first of what will probably be many marches nationwide over due course.
If nothing else the marches force the media to consider at some juncture the long term consequences of all this revolutionary change to the public sector.
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Post by jamo on Mar 27, 2011 17:39:51 GMT 1
Yeah, sounds to me that is exactly what he is saying. Thanks for your contribution...pointless as always.
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Post by jamo on Mar 27, 2011 17:44:17 GMT 1
One more question for you. Just how much did the demonstration including transport and police etc cost? Don't know what the Policing costs were Jonah - I am sure they were considerable- but i do know that the TUC spent millions on providing thousands of their own stewards, The transport question is irrelevant in that how people spend their own money is entirely up to them. rather like football fans do when they go to big games and the Police presence is large, Wales v England yesterday for example.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 17:50:44 GMT 1
Mate, calling someone gullible is in my opinion quite offensive, by saying that you are assuming that I have taken what is fed by the media as an accurate accute of actions as yesterday. Really ? Then you are much more sensitive and shy, retiring person than I assummed. Make a complaint to the moderators if you think I have over stepped the mark, I am sure they will then be able to inflict some osrt of punishment on me ....alternatively grow up. lol............ any way, back to making the streets of our great capital a battleground!!
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Post by Old Bucks Head on Mar 27, 2011 18:47:25 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 19:52:48 GMT 1
Yeah, sounds to me that is exactly what he is saying. Thanks for your contribution...pointless as always. No, thank you for your contribution, pathetic as it always is. One of these days you are going to post something with some substance to it, but i wont hold my breath. By the way, how did you feel rubbing shoulders with the "bin dipping" contingent of the march.
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Post by WindsorShrew on Mar 27, 2011 21:17:26 GMT 1
has a post been removed from this thread ?
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Post by mattmw on Mar 27, 2011 23:12:12 GMT 1
Think the heart of the problem with the debt we have as a country is that everyone wants a quick fix to it, when that isn't going to happen
The past and present government don't seem to have any appetite for regulating the banks and still view year on year economic growth as the key to everything. While the public sector still seems to see throwing money at things as the solution (am saying this as a public sector worker)
For me I think we need to take a step back, realise that we are not a world super power or economic power house or military enforcer. Instead concentrate on good solid economic development which provides long term jobs and a greater reliance on our own resources.
That might mean less state spending, smaller levels of growth and paying off the debt over a longer period but it seems better than the ad hoc cuts we are experiencing with no guarantee of long term stability.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Mar 28, 2011 8:02:11 GMT 1
If the problem is debt (and I doubt that it is) it in't public debt. It is private debt: www.direct.gov.uk/en/Nl1/Newsroom/Budget/Budget2010/DG_188496 The table on the first page of chapter 1 shows the concerning growth of indebtedness of financial companies ahead of growth of GDP. Here is the best video I have seen explaining the mechanics of the credit crisis: And here is a video of Steve Keen's explanation of the mechanics of this - with particular emphasis on the USA and Australian experience: www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2011/03/20/mortgage-finance-association-of-australia-talk/This is some of the big stuff. Some other big stuff is taxation for international companies HQ'd in this country, and how taxation policies are competing to the bottom for these companies. The "tidying up" of the corporation tax system to ensure a target tax burden of around 8% for these companies will only not have a serious impact on tax receipts if you are Tory Chancellor who doesn't believe that tax differentials change corporate behaviour. Beyond that we have the lack of manufacturing: we're falling behind all the time, just a few years ago we were the 6th biggest manufacturing economy. Now we are the 9th. Major national political parties exist so that big business and business organisations have two someones to talk to 1) The people currently in government. 2) the people who will form the next government. And play off one against the other as each tries to curry favour with big business/The City/banks (delete as applicable). All this plays out against a back-drop of mind-boggling inequality of income and wealth within and across countries.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Mar 28, 2011 8:05:06 GMT 1
ed: Sean, I agree that there has been SOME more balanced comment drip-feeding out, but very rarely has it been given equal airtime to the "potential catastrophic scenario" that the media have preferred to lead with. Thankfully, as it's pretty much become a scientifically-proven washout now, the order of the story has now finally flipped to what it should be - actual tragedy First, slight risk of further impacts Second. But be careful because scientists do not make scientific statements all the time: The suggestion that no one is likely to die as a result of the nuclear problems in Japan is open to argument. Particularly with regard to the men dowsed in highly radioactive water.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 11:47:35 GMT 1
Couple of comments/observations:
1) A peaceful demo yet again gets hijacked by the 'rent a mob element' - trouble follows, just what the media love! Unfortunately then the main message is lost to be repalced by images of hooded thugs enjoying their 15 minutes of fame or should I say infamy?
2) What of the political alternative? I for one am not exactly inspired by the alternative of Labour under Ed Milliband - what a disappointment he has been to date. His performance on Saturday was cringeworthy. Does he look and act the statesman he alludes to be? Not at the moment, by a long way.
3) Those who want can give the condems a massive bloody nose in May but only IF they get down the polling station & use the ballot box. It wont be the votes cast that will be important it will be the % turnout that will be the key.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Mar 28, 2011 13:15:40 GMT 1
Nice to see people give such a damn but I fail to see what it will achieve, in the same way that the demonstrations regarding Iraq failed to change everything. I'd love to be proved wrong. Some protest movements make a difference, some don't - time will tell. I don't think the Iraq comparison is valid, the government at the time had a huge majority and was led by someone who was so committed that he was prepared to lie to get what he wanted. The current lot are different and I suspect that many Lib Dem MP's don't agree with the scale of the cuts and are very worried about their future electability. If people turn the May 5th AV vote into protest against the Lib Dems and AV fails then I see the Lib Dems either forcing the government to make substantial policy changes or their back benchers refusing the whip.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Mar 28, 2011 13:17:52 GMT 1
Nice to see people give such a damn but I fail to see what it will achieve, in the same way that the demonstrations regarding Iraq failed to change everything. I'd love to be proved wrong. Some protest movements make a difference, some don't - time will tell. I don't think the Iraq comparison is valid, the government at the time had a huge majority and was led by someone who was so committed that he was prepared to lie to get what he wanted. The current lot are different and I suspect that many Lib Dem MP's don't agree with the scale of the cuts and are very worried about their future electability. And the point has to be made. Until you make it you don't know what effect it can have.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Mar 30, 2011 23:44:33 GMT 1
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