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Post by Shrewed on Feb 24, 2011 15:16:29 GMT 1
After reading in the star that on average we pay as council tax payers £1.61 a week for the Fire and rescue service and that to save increasing that 60 jobs are to be lost, I did find the comments of Toryboy amusing if a little worrying. "Now is the time for the ordinary citizen to stand up and become part of the BIG SOCIETY. We dont need to pay hefty amounts of taxes to pay for someone to put fires out, we can all muck in, just like it was a couple of 100 years ago, stand in line and pass the buckets down." The sign of times to come.
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Post by ratcliffesghost on Feb 24, 2011 15:38:52 GMT 1
The big society IS all about people volunteering to replacing paid professionals doing jobs.
A number of these jobs are highly skilled and will be performed in future by sub standard and untrained people.
I sincerely hope I am wrong but I see it as a matter of time before someone dies as a result - the blame for which appears to be quite clear.
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Post by WindsorShrew on Feb 24, 2011 18:52:48 GMT 1
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Post by WindsorShrew on Feb 24, 2011 19:00:26 GMT 1
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Post by Shrewed on Feb 24, 2011 19:45:10 GMT 1
The real point is that Cameron's message has constantly been about local democracy, where is our choice in Shropshire to decide we are happy to pay more for our fire service or police service etc. It is all bull Pickles is forcing through a freeze on council tax regardless of local needs.
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Post by shrewsace on Feb 24, 2011 19:52:19 GMT 1
"No cuts to 'frontline' public services"
An end to 'top down' government.
'You shouldn't frighten people going into an election, it's not on'.
The Big Society really is a load of BS.
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Post by jamo on Feb 24, 2011 20:12:43 GMT 1
No such thing as The Big society.
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Post by WindsorShrew on Feb 24, 2011 20:28:38 GMT 1
No such thing as boom and bust either, believe any of them at your peril.
Question what if any impact have the Fire Authority in this decision ?
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 24, 2011 23:37:47 GMT 1
I think the great tragedy of what they are talking up as "The Big Society" is that public service, volunteering and community work has been at the heart of this nation since ages past.
You only have to look at the boy scout movement, or the RNLI, or the National Trust, or the thousands of hospitals and schools founded before the welfare state.
Look at kids football: how many people actually get paid? It is all voluntary work and people giving their time and energy to make things happen for the public good.
The idea that politicising such activity makes people wary or even sceptical of volunterring is frankly heartbreaking.
That said, the part of the "Big Society" agenda that I do agree with is why the state feels the need to replicate and duplicate services already being done locally. I cannot say I have ever found myself agreeing with Francis Maude, but he makes a very good point about local government should be more willing to invest in what people are already doing, rather than individual people empire building and developing replica projects.
An example of this would be the volunteer bureau in Shrewsbury which ran for many years as a voluntary organisation until SABC pulled the funding and it closed. Then another branch of local government tried to reinstate a form of the service under their headship which was hailed as a "feather in the cap" for those behind the new project. The only difference now is that no-one wants to volunteer for it, so it is only paid people, and the grant to run the whole former organisation used to be less than the cost of one of the workers.
That said, I do believe the local LJC funding panels have beena major step forward in empowering local projects to develop.
I do also hate the way the "Big Society" is being billed as this great new idea. Our Church runs a foodbank and a debt advice project, mums and toddlers and senior citizens groups, childrens club and youth club. We ran an addiction support group whent here was a rehab in Shrewsbury, and are involved in the prison. These are just examples: all over the town thousands of local people volunteer and help out doing stuff, giving their time and money for the benefit of people around them.
These are not examples of the "big society" in action. Do not brand what we already do for political capital. Without volunteers there would be no flower show, no west mid show (or its replacement), no carnival, no homeless project, very few charity shops, no fairtrade shop, no league of friends at the hospital. In fact our town would look very, very different.
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Post by jamo on Feb 25, 2011 8:50:09 GMT 1
Well said Throb.
It is utterly distateful to have the work of decent people hijacked for political effect
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Post by SeanBroseley on Feb 25, 2011 8:53:34 GMT 1
Boom and bust was an Eddie George phrase that Gordon Brown picked up on. Eddie George coined it as a contrast to his experience at the Bank of England in the 1980s and 90s. It was always a nonsense.
The cuts will probably damage every public service and most people will also be left with less money of their own to make good the gap.
Debt advice project. I bet they're busy. Will get busier too.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 25, 2011 10:27:08 GMT 1
Debt advice project. I bet they're busy. Will get busier too. They are massively busy, yeah, but they have been since it opened. www.barnabascommunitychurch.com/moneyadvice.htmwww.barnabascommunitychurch.com/debtrelief.htmIt is the foodbank that has really seen demand go through the roof, often plugging the gap in time between redundancy and benefits. The difference between the picture whitehall paints and the actual experiences of everyday people on the ground is unbelievable.
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Post by shrewsace on Feb 25, 2011 13:33:46 GMT 1
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Post by Amsterdammer on Feb 25, 2011 13:47:22 GMT 1
"Now is the time for the ordinary citizen to stand up and become part of the BIG SOCIETY. We dont need to pay hefty amounts of taxes to pay for someone to put fires out, we can all muck in, just like it was a couple of 100 years ago, stand in line and pass the buckets down." Surely that quote is not genuine? A senior guy from a large Dutch company said to me recently: "What are they doing in the UK? They've gone mad"
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Post by mattmw on Feb 25, 2011 13:54:37 GMT 1
Think that Guardian article sums up the big society very well
Our team at council is charged with promoting the big society in Shropshire and while volunteering is a big part of it, getting companies and social enterprises to run services instead of the council is also a big part of the process
In many ways getting communities to commission their own services is great and actually creates more knowledge and interest amongst communities than just having a faceless council do it
But the big issue will be how less well off communities, or those without a good collective voice can make sure they get a good deal.
The other worry is whether such a big change in how services are delivered should take place when funds are very tight. Neighbourhood planning needs decent professional support to get it started from people like the police, fire service etc and these organisations won't have much capacity in the next few years
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Feb 25, 2011 15:19:30 GMT 1
I wonder where the volunteers are going to come from. Since retiring I've volunteered with Oxfam and Age Concern and I'm one of the youngest volunteers. Most are ladies over 70 and they are very difficult to replace when they are unable to continue working.
I've also been working part time for a local church. Although I don't have any religious faith I do admire the work that the church does - for example during the recent cold weather they kept a hall open all night to offer shelter to homeless people, staffed by members of the congregation.
Again, these were older people and they are the bulk of the congregation despite efforts made to encourage young people to attend.
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Post by ratcliffesghost on Feb 25, 2011 15:54:23 GMT 1
I wonder where the volunteers are going to come from. Radio Shropshire had it spot on this morning when they mentioned that a lot of volunteers are giving up due to increased petrol costs. I too do a significant amount of unpaid work for a local charity and hope to be able to continue to do so. But It does hurt having to find about £20 a week out of my own pocket for the running around that this requires (MAKE A NOTE MR CAMERON )
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 20:30:12 GMT 1
people need to seriously wake up. this exercise in bull s**t is not about involving people at local levels or giving people more say in their community services, people can do all this already if they want.
what this is all about, is
a) destroying the public sector. b) lining the pockets of the tories friends in the private sector. c) making enough money, quick enough to be able to make tax cuts at the next general election (the great and historical tory bribe wheneve thhey are in power)
my suggestion on how cameron and his puppy clegg should be dealt with is this.
next time there is a fire in their area, them pair should be first in with a bucket of water
next time either them or their families need medical help, they should go on line for advice or find a volunteer to look after them
if they are being burgled ring their local neighbourhood watch.
i do not believe for a second that the public sector is perfect, but constantly making it the scapegoat for the problems we have as a nation is nothing more than a lie, and the big society is nothing more than a badly veiled return to the devisive policies of thatcher.
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Post by forestryman on Feb 25, 2011 20:35:14 GMT 1
people need to seriously wake up. this exercise in bull s**t is not about involving people at local levels or giving people more say in their community services, people can do all this already if they want. what this is all about, is a) destroying the public sector. b) lining the pockets of the tories friends in the private sector. c) making enough money, quick enough to be able to make tax cuts at the next general election (the great and historical tory bribe wheneve thhey are in power) my suggestion on how cameron and his puppy clegg should be dealt with is this. next time there is a fire in their area, them pair should be first in with a bucket of water next time either them or their families need medical help, they should go on line for advice or find a volunteer to look after them if they are being burgled ring their local neighbourhood watch. i do not believe for a second that the public sector is perfect, but constantly making it the scapegoat for the problems we have as a nation is nothing more than a lie, and the big society is nothing more than a badly veiled return to the devisive policies of thatcher. yes, it is the tory way of saying do it yourself as we are giving all your money to business
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Post by WindsorShrew on Feb 25, 2011 20:49:37 GMT 1
people need to seriously wake up. this exercise in bull s**t is not about involving people at local levels or giving people more say in their community services, people can do all this already if they want. what this is all about, is a) destroying the public sector. b) lining the pockets of the tories friends in the private sector. c) making enough money, quick enough to be able to make tax cuts at the next general election (the great and historical tory bribe wheneve thhey are in power) my suggestion on how cameron and his puppy clegg should be dealt with is this. next time there is a fire in their area, them pair should be first in with a bucket of water next time either them or their families need medical help, they should go on line for advice or find a volunteer to look after them if they are being burgled ring their local neighbourhood watch. i do not believe for a second that the public sector is perfect, but constantly making it the scapegoat for the problems we have as a nation is nothing more than a lie, and the big society is nothing more than a badly veiled return to the devisive policies of thatcher. oooooh such venom, put you head down and get some graft in Pab......believe in SuperCam and he will lead us from the New Labour cesspit we have found ourselves in. Looks like you've got a stalker btw.....
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Post by shrewsace on Feb 25, 2011 20:55:19 GMT 1
people need to seriously wake up. this exercise in bull s**t is not about involving people at local levels or giving people more say in their community services, people can do all this already if they want. what this is all about, is a) destroying the public sector. b) lining the pockets of the tories friends in the private sector. c) making enough money, quick enough to be able to make tax cuts at the next general election (the great and historical tory bribe wheneve thhey are in power) my suggestion on how cameron and his puppy clegg should be dealt with is this. next time there is a fire in their area, them pair should be first in with a bucket of water next time either them or their families need medical help, they should go on line for advice or find a volunteer to look after them if they are being burgled ring their local neighbourhood watch. i do not believe for a second that the public sector is perfect, but constantly making it the scapegoat for the problems we have as a nation is nothing more than a lie, and the big society is nothing more than a badly veiled return to the devisive policies of thatcher. Agree on all counts, Matron, although you forgot breaking the unions and labour movement among their many perfidious motives. A transient, low paid workforce with little or no work place protections (see the Vince Cable endorsed 'Employers Charter') is all part of their endgame. Anyone who can't see through the "We're not cutting your services, we're empowering you to run your own' bulls**t, being peedled by a slippery, City financed, PR man must be credulous beyond belief. More essential (and very funny) reading: www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mark-steel/mark-steel-the-caring-sharing-way-to-bad-times-2208412.html
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Post by jamo on Feb 25, 2011 20:58:10 GMT 1
what this is all about, is a) destroying the public sector. b) lining the pockets of the tories friends in the private sector. c) making enough money, quick enough to be able to make tax cuts at the next general election (the great and historical tory bribe wheneve thhey are in power) . Absolutely spot on comrade. Capita, Serco et al are falling over themselves to wine and dine the powerbrokers of local government in order to pick off the public services that they can rape and barstewardise. The really scary bit of this `outsourcing` is that councils are talking of giving these people contracts of 30 or 40 years. That will be our public services gone for good.
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Post by bertymax on Feb 26, 2011 9:29:52 GMT 1
After reading in the star that on average we pay as council tax payers £1.61 a week for the Fire and rescue service and that to save increasing that 60 jobs are to be lost, I did find the comments of Toryboy amusing if a little worrying. "Now is the time for the ordinary citizen to stand up and become part of the BIG SOCIETY. We dont need to pay hefty amounts of taxes to pay for someone to put fires out, we can all muck in, just like it was a couple of 100 years ago, stand in line and pass the buckets down." The sign of times to come. That quote just about summed it all up for me, what the hell is going on with this country? were turning into a third world state, what a fu**in mess were in. Least in shropshire your lucky enough to have a man of the people in Kim Ryley overseeing what services and people are surplus to requirements. Its great to see him leading from the front and setting an example by agreeing to accept a 5% pay cut. Its going to be tough coping on £171,000, hope he still has some of the £190,000 p.a he earned when CEO at Hull or the £11,000 as the returning officer in the last election in the bank. Before we have a whip round, dont worry about little old Kymie, On closer reading it looks like he will still be paid his £180,000 salary, so he will still get his full pension rights, he is just going to set up a charity along with his 5/6 most senior managers(the ones recently employed for Salaries ranging from £90,000-£130,000) where this 5% "paycut" will go. Theres probably some sort of tax break involved in there somewhere too. To be quite honest, i think i'd prefer if he didnt bother, He has resisted doing the honourable thing and sharing the pain of pay cuts since announcing everyone else had to(despite clearly being able to afford it) and when the pressure gets too much, he thinks up this little gem. When times are tough, you want yr top people to roll their sleeves up and lead from the front, set an example, He had the opportunity to do that and win the respect of his peers but has not done the right thing yet again. The guy's self interest beggars belief. How this is going to save Shropshire council the money its desperatly trying to save i dont know, but if i was an employee if of the council or a council tax payer of Shropshire i'd be pretty p**sed off with him. In fact its quite insulting.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 0:38:03 GMT 1
What would you do in his position, make yourself redundant?
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Post by bertymax on Feb 27, 2011 21:47:30 GMT 1
What would you do in his position, make yourself redundant? Well, he plans to make thousands of his staff redundant. Pretty simple really...If i was in his boots i'd of set the right example and taken a paycut before i'd expected all me staff to do so.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 22:14:58 GMT 1
Am I reading your initial post incorrectly Berty, didn't you say he'd taken a paycut?
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Post by mattmw on Feb 27, 2011 22:23:20 GMT 1
Am I reading your initial post incorrectly Berty, didn't you say he'd taken a paycut? What the chief exec of the council is proposing is the the senior management team at the council pay 5% of their wages into a trust fund which will support local children The council is currently consulting on whether the staff week should be reduced from 37 to 35 hours a week meaning approximately 5% pay cut for staff. However this reduction in pay doesn't include the senior staff - hence the offer to give 5% of their earnings into the trust fund The drawback to this is that this doesn't actually save the taxpayer money - nor does it mean the senior staff are on the same terms and conditions as most "normal" staff at the council
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2011 22:25:48 GMT 1
Thanks Mattmw.
Are some staff paid overtime? If so, could even end up costing the tax payer some money.
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Post by bertymax on Feb 27, 2011 22:37:46 GMT 1
No, i dont think you misread it! My issue is as the Chief Ex on £180,000, he should be setting an example and taking a cut before he expects his staff, who are on alot less to do so. In fact, it appears he has only accepted to do so after a bit of critism, especially after his role as the chairman of SOLACE and that Savoy businesss came out in the press last wk. Then, when he does, its not a pay cut in the same sense as he expects his employees to do so, He is saying i will make a 5% donation from my salary and create a new fund which i will oversee, so he will still be paid his £180,000 salary and recieve his full pension etc. To me it looks like his gesture is a pretty shallow attempt at deflecting some of the critisism coming his way, and even when the pressure to do the "right" thing is too much to ignore, this is half a gesture that still has some financial benefits for him. He is doing the least he thinks he can get away with. As per my original post, i fail to see how Kym riley putting this 5% of money into this new pot is this saving the council money, is he giving his employees who will be losing 5% of their salaries that option? No.
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Post by mattmw on Feb 28, 2011 0:21:18 GMT 1
Thanks Mattmw. Are some staff paid overtime? If so, could even end up costing the tax payer some money. In general staff at the Council don't get over time - just time off in return. However I think some specialist staff do get overtime such as those called out to emergencies
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