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Post by d00bie on Nov 12, 2010 15:05:33 GMT 1
Just imagine the outcry if they had of burned a puppy eh Scoot!! The nation would have them condemned as they did with the cat lady from Coventry. But for now it's just a few crazy muslims playing with fire. Does anyone care that much I don't think so. Did Hitler have the right ideas, but just went about things the wrong way? Theres one or two people I know who put that question to me the other night I won't bore you with my answer thats for another debate
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Post by Pilch on Nov 12, 2010 15:10:21 GMT 1
it funny you should say that scoot my mum still reminds me of when i came home from school saying if she gave me a penny i could have a puppy tomorrow
she went along with the joke and happily gave me a penny
i never did listen properly in school ;-)
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Post by venceremos on Nov 12, 2010 17:37:27 GMT 1
As the clock struck 11am, the Islamic protesters burned a model of a poppy and chanted ‘British soldiers burn in hell’.What I find particularly sad is that it seems as if we're almost becomed used to this type of protest - it no longer really shocks people, I shudder to think what people who fought in WW2 make of things like this. I'd like to believe they'd think that such freedom, however extreme its expression, is exactly what they were fighting for. Churchill said something similar when the electorate resoundingly voted out him and his government straight after the war. It seems to have been a minor protest, clearly intended to cause upset. But so what? Is our democracy so weak that we can't just ignore it? There is no real freedom of speech unless people have the right to say and do things that others might prefer not to hear or see. As long as no-one gets hurt or intimidated and no laws are broken, a tolerant society must be prepared to tolerate such things. Isn't that part of what we're supposed to be fighting for anyway?
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Post by stockportershrew on Nov 12, 2010 17:57:27 GMT 1
it i never did listen properly in school ;-) That's why you've ended up as moderator on B&A
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Post by heavenlyshrew on Nov 12, 2010 18:04:19 GMT 1
Atleast now their mugshots will be on a CIA and anti terrorism list.
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Post by saladsaladsalad on Nov 12, 2010 18:29:13 GMT 1
As the clock struck 11am, the Islamic protesters burned a model of a poppy and chanted ‘British soldiers burn in hell’.What I find particularly sad is that it seems as if we're almost becomed used to this type of protest - it no longer really shocks people, I shudder to think what people who fought in WW2 make of things like this. I'd like to believe they'd think that such freedom, however extreme its expression, is exactly what they were fighting for. Churchill said something similar when the electorate resoundingly voted out him and his government straight after the war. It seems to have been a minor protest, clearly intended to cause upset. But so what? Is our democracy so weak that we can't just ignore it? There is no real freedom of speech unless people have the right to say and do things that others might prefer not to hear or see. As long as no-one gets hurt or intimidated and no laws are broken, a tolerant society must be prepared to tolerate such things. Isn't that part of what we're supposed to be fighting for anyway? I highly doubt it, but in any case protests like this do break laws - Section 5 public order as El Presidente posted on page 1 and people were arrested in the course of this protest. Yes its a minor protest and so the majority of people shrug their shoulders and let them get on with it, so more protests are planned against the British armed forces, support for organisations like the EDL grows in response and all the while the divide between more extreme muslims and society also grows, hard to see a happy ending in this scenario. Also find it pretty laughable that muslims conduct protests like these, and previous ones were they have celebrated Sep 11th, dressed as suicide bombers, said that more london bombings will happen, urge fellow muslims to send money for terrorism, etc. However a cartoon of the Prophet appears in a newspaper and all hell breaks loose, hardly much encouragement of 'freedom of expression' being reciprocated is there?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2010 18:55:02 GMT 1
Two comments/things that annoy me about this
The first is that people will say when we have these extreme Muslims protesting like this is that we may not like it but its freedom of speech, we live in a democracy so people are entitled to oppose whatever they want, no matter whether we disagree. Thats fine but over the years Ive lost count of the amount of times Ive heard that far right white extremists such as EDL, BNP, NF etc etc should be banned, its a disgrace they are allowed to march/protest etc. Surely no matter how distasteful their views are they are entitled to express them?
Secondly, some peoples arguments are that we may find the poppy sacred but other counties/cultures dont so we shouldnt be so sensitive. However if I went over to a foreign country, particuarly a Islamic one and did something to an emblem, a book, a symbol etc that was sacred/important to them Id likely be up on a very serious charge and the reaction from Britain would be "well your in their country so you should respect their customs"
So why is that we have to stop being so sensitive about things that matter to us whereas if other cultures get upset over something that matters to them then its because we are being insensitive?
Incidentally, someone made the (valid) point about the student(s) and that women who defaced war memorials and I would put them in the same bracket as these extreme musilm protesters. I dont care what colour or religion you are, if you do something like that then your scum
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Post by eclipsechaser on Nov 12, 2010 19:15:25 GMT 1
Here's a point to ponder over ..............When a fanatical Islamic extremist commits such an insensitive act , Do you ever SEE or HEAR any oither Muslims condemning that act and speaking out against it ?
In my experience they don't either because they are scared of their culture , scared of reprisals too or they approve of the inciteful and hateful acts .
They are absolutely deplorable !
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Post by mattmw on Nov 12, 2010 20:12:33 GMT 1
Here's a point to ponder over ..............When a fanatical Islamic extremist commits such an insensitive act , Do you ever SEE or HEAR any oither Muslims condemning that act and speaking out against it ? In my experience they don't either because they are scared of their culture , scared of reprisals too or they approve of the inciteful and hateful acts . They are absolutely deplorable ! Quote from a number of papers today from the Muslim Council of Britain "while this handful of people claim to speak for Muslims, many more will join fellow Britons in remembering the sacrifice of our armed forces. We do not want this incident to detract from the many acts of remembrance taking place over this weekend" Labour MP Khalid Mahmood described the actions as "ridiculous and despicable"
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2010 21:01:48 GMT 1
" MUSLIMS" burn a poppy. What scenes of National indignation and outrage this headline will create. Unfortunately the word "some" or "a few" is conveniently left out. So, the actions of a few activists help taint what is a gentle, peace loving religion practiced by many the world over. Colonel "FECKIN OUTRAGED" of the Home Counties, followed by an assortment of knuckle draggers, spout forth drivel, and the timid suddenly find voice to join together for a few bars of "send the f.....s home." And what is achieved, exactly what the misguided few set out to achieve. And we fall into the trap time and time again.
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Post by albionshrew on Nov 12, 2010 21:09:10 GMT 1
" MUSLIMS" burn a poppy. What scenes of National indignation and outrage this headline will create. Unfortunately the word "some" or "a few" is conveniently left out. So, the actions of a few activists help taint what is a gentle, peace loving religion practiced by many the world over. Colonel "FECKIN OUTRAGED" of the Home Counties, followed by an assortment of knuckle draggers, spout forth drivel, and the timid suddenly find voice to join together for a few bars of "send the f.....s home." And what is achieved, exactly what the misguided few set out to achieve. And we fall into the trap time and time again. I think that we are all aware that it's a minority of Muslims who cause trouble (with poppies, London buses, aircraft...).
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Post by saladsaladsalad on Nov 12, 2010 21:54:25 GMT 1
& So, the actions of a few activists help taint what is a gentle, peace loving religion practiced by many the world over. In recent years about as gentle and peace loving as Christianity during the crusades. This occasion involved a small number of muslims, previous protests have involved thousands, its just another slap in the face to Britain to add to the list.
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Post by mattmw on Nov 12, 2010 22:01:41 GMT 1
& So, the actions of a few activists help taint what is a gentle, peace loving religion practiced by many the world over. In recent years about as gentle and peace loving as Christianity during the crusades. This occasion involved a small number of muslims, previous protests have involved thousands, its just another slap in the face to Britain to add to the list. Care to point out where and when thousands of Muslims have protested slapping Britain in the face?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2010 22:11:57 GMT 1
" MUSLIMS" burn a poppy. What scenes of National indignation and outrage this headline will create. Unfortunately the word "some" or "a few" is conveniently left out. So, the actions of a few activists help taint what is a gentle, peace loving religion practiced by many the world over. Colonel "FECKIN OUTRAGED" of the Home Counties, followed by an assortment of knuckle draggers, spout forth drivel, and the timid suddenly find voice to join together for a few bars of "send the f.....s home." And what is achieved, exactly what the misguided few set out to achieve. And we fall into the trap time and time again. I think that we are all aware that it's a minority of Muslims who cause trouble (with poppies, London buses, aircraft...). NO. Thats the whole point of my post, we are NOT all aware that its a minority. That is why when the word Muslim is mentioned too many people align the word with bombs, London buses, aircraft......
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Post by saladsaladsalad on Nov 12, 2010 22:16:47 GMT 1
In recent years about as gentle and peace loving as Christianity during the crusades. This occasion involved a small number of muslims, previous protests have involved thousands, its just another slap in the face to Britain to add to the list. Care to point out where and when thousands of Muslims have protested slapping Britain in the face? Sure, in Feb 06 muslim protesters in London (press reports indicate 5000 protesters).
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Post by champagneprince on Nov 12, 2010 22:20:10 GMT 1
So, the actions of a few activists help taint what is a gentle, peace loving religion practiced by many the world over. If this is so then those gentle, peace loving folk should be in uproar that this tiny minority are making their religion look so terrible. But time after time, we see this kind of disrespect shown and if the Muslim world was as disgusted as we are then they shouldn't continue to stand by and let it continue.
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Post by mattmw on Nov 12, 2010 22:26:02 GMT 1
Care to point out where and when thousands of Muslims have protested slapping Britain in the face? Sure, in Feb 06 muslim protesters in London (press reports indicate 5000 protesters). Which was followed the following week by this demo "I went to the gym for a swim and a workout, and on the way back I decided to go and visit Trafalgar Square where a rally had been organised by various Muslim groups following the publication of the cartoons, and last week's protest with extremist banners calling for violence. The rally today had about 10, 000 people (at a rough guess) and I found it to be a peaceful and united condemnation of extremism and provocation - whether of Islamophobic cartoons or hateful placards. I was there for just over an hour. I was talking to people rather than listening to the speeches I had a long and interesting talk with a young Muslim man who was giving away leaflets explaining Islam, and was being set about by a very rude Evangelical Christian man (who, it turned out was pretty theologically illiterate). I got drawn into the discussion which was respectful and knowledgable on the Muslim man's side and aggressive and rambling on the Christian man's side. Eventually the Muslim leaflet man and I moved away and continued our chat away from him as Mr Evangelical was turning into an embarrassing foaming loon. We talked about war, peace, the Old and New Testament and Qu'ran, Darwinism and the Nicene Creed amongst other things. We forgot to ask each other's names for some reason. It was a relief to see a large, peaceful, sincere demonstration of ordinary Muslims - Trafalgar Square was pretty full - I was blogging earlier this week about how frustrating it is when all you see is images of angry young Muslims waving extremist banners there was incredulity at the actions of the suicide bombers and people mentioned their reaction to the offensive banners waved last week ( 'Europe is the Cancer... 7/7 is on its way' etc). 'They are not proper Muslims, this makes it so difficult for us' I was told again and again. I said I knew that. I didn't mention my personal experiences on 7th July I've been given a CD, of sung Islamic prayers, as a parting gift. I read the leaflets on the tube home. They gave a basic guide to the principles of Islam and stressed the peaceful nature of the Prophet Mohammed, (peace be upon him). I'm glad I went along, even though it was freezing. I haven't been to a demo in Trafalgar Square since July 14th, when there was a very moving vigil of London United Against Terrorism. Which many Muslims attended. Being back in Trafalgar Square reminded me so much of that week in July - I was quite moved as I thought of all that had happened since then. It really cheered me up to see so much common sense and calmness: I was a bit nervous about going at first in case a) it was for Muslims only, or b) the damn extremists had got in and started causing trouble and being inflammatory. But it was fine, it was very inspiring and it encouraged me. I am glad I went."
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Post by saladsaladsalad on Nov 12, 2010 22:44:46 GMT 1
Sure, in Feb 06 muslim protesters in London (press reports indicate 5000 protesters). Which was followed the following week by this demo The point being that not every protest by Muslims are inflammatory and extremist? If the BNP or EDL etc conducted a relatively peaceful protest would that prove anything? As has been pointed out already, when the EDL conduct disgusting protests people are almost 100% against them and various anti-fascist organisations set up opposing protests. However when Muslim extremists conduct disgusting protests many people fully support their right to protest claiming it as freedom of speech. Double standards? Just a bit.
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Post by mattmw on Nov 12, 2010 22:51:07 GMT 1
Most people on this thread have agreed that all groups should have freedom of speech so I'm not quite sure where the double standards idea is coming from?
BNP and EDL and extreme Muslims are flip sides of the same coin who don't want free speech - just their views shouted loudest.
Personally the more daft extremist views from left or right, EDL or Muslim are made in public the better - then their views can be challenged through debate and discussion.
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Post by heavenlyshrew on Nov 12, 2010 22:55:39 GMT 1
Most people on this thread have agreed that all groups should have freedom of speech so I'm not quite sure where the double standards idea is coming from? BNP and EDL and extreme Muslims are flip sides of the same coin who don't want free speech - just their views shouted loudest. Personally the more daft extremist views from left or right, EDL or Muslim are made in public the better - then their views can be challenged through debate and discussion. There is no such thing as freedom of speech.
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Post by champagneprince on Nov 12, 2010 22:59:58 GMT 1
Which was followed the following week by this demo Matt, it was great that this demo was arranged and this type of thing should be much better publicised as it all helps to break down those barriers that exist and continue to grow. But, it's still not enough. The tabloids and media in general should've been all over it but for some reason weren't ? The peace loving muslims need to do more to make the sceptical sit up and listen. A rally in Trafalgar Square just is not enough. If the 'European 9/11' comes then all Muslims will be a target, so the peace loving muslims need to do more NOW. As it stands, can you imagine the backlash now if a 9/11 type event that leaves thousands dead happened on these shores ? It would be mayhem. The backlash would cause London and any other city with a large muslim population to become a battleground or worse. Now look at it another way, if more is done to get rid of the activists and to raise the profile of the religion then come the day that a 9/11 event happens then maybe, just maybe, the repercussions will not be as bad against those genuine peace loving muslims who are really no different from you or me. The Muslims really need to help themselves much more.
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Post by mattmw on Nov 12, 2010 23:16:38 GMT 1
Which was followed the following week by this demo Matt, it was great that this demo was arranged and this type of thing should be much better publicised as it all helps to break down those barriers that exist and continue to grow. But, it's still not enough. The tabloids and media in general should've been all over it but for some reason weren't ? The peace loving muslims need to do more to make the sceptical sit up and listen. A rally in Trafalgar Square just is not enough. If the 'European 9/11' comes then all Muslims will be a target, so the peace loving muslims need to do more NOW. As it stands, can you imagine the backlash now if a 9/11 type event that leaves thousands dead happened on these shores ? It would be mayhem. The backlash would cause London and any other city with a large muslim population to become a battleground or worse. Now look at it another way, if more is done to get rid of the activists and to raise the profile of the religion then come the day that a 9/11 event happens then maybe, just maybe, the repercussions will not be as bad against those genuine peace loving muslims who are really no different from you or me. The Muslims really need to help themselves much more. Can see where you are coming from but that argument suggests that all Muslims are one united group with a single voice, when in reality they have as many different groupings as Christian groups in the uk. Some are very moderate and westernised, others very traditional and conservative and of course some are extreme I'm not quite sure I'd agree with the idea that if another attack should happen in the uk that public reaction will be mayhem. Clearly there has been a backlash against Muslims in the us and uk since the terrorist attacks but it seems to me that the vast majority of people can distinguish between terrorism and religious belief. Certainly agree the media needs to do more to give the Muslim community a chance to put their view forward more, but suspect if this was to happen there maybesuggestions of trying to promote Islam on the uk from some quarters.
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Post by saladsaladsalad on Nov 12, 2010 23:26:13 GMT 1
Most people on this thread have agreed that all groups should have freedom of speech so I'm not quite sure where the double standards idea is coming from? Untrue, I see 3 people including yourself. Personally the more daft extremist views from left or right, EDL or Muslim are made in public the better - then their views can be challenged through debate and discussion. Seems a bit naive bearing in mind the larger scale discord these type of activities cause. You cant expect everyone to want to enter into debate and discussion - protests, especially ones seen as disrespectful to Britain, the armed forces and our parents/grandparents etc that served in WW1 or WW2 serve to disenfranchise people to Muslims as a whole, rightly or wrongly. So not only are they offensive to many, they damage relations, laws are broken and they bolster support to far-right groups. As an aside, I note a couple of 'Muslims against extremists/terrorists' protests were carried out in the US, apparently less than 50 people attended, most of whom weren't even Muslim.
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Post by mattmw on Nov 12, 2010 23:39:44 GMT 1
Not quite sure how me saying people should say things in public is against freedom of speech but any how...
By challenge them I mean put forward alternative views expressing why you believe those views are incorrect or different from your views. You might not change their view but it at least gives us the opportunity to give people two sides of the story to look at. Without that I'm not quite sure how issues get taken forward and improved
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2010 23:58:45 GMT 1
news of religious bigotry, fanatical activists etc makes the headlines because, preverse as it may seem, it is what people want to read. News of peaceful protests, condemnation of extremist behaviour, by the relevant religious body, very rarely makes the headlines.
Its a case of " dog bites man" v "man bites dog".
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Post by champagneprince on Nov 13, 2010 0:06:12 GMT 1
I'm not quite sure I'd agree with the idea that if another attack should happen in the uk that public reaction will be mayhem. You may well be right but I can only go on my own experiences and what we have seen following 9/11. Last year I spent 6 months working in Bethnal Green/Shadwell where there is a large Muslim population. I had the pleasure of accompanying a guy for a while who had lived there all his life and whilst he could see the benefits of migrant workers (all his team were migrant workers) he felt sad that the society had changed so much and so quickly. Being a Shrewsbury boy I was only to keen to discuss the pubs with him ( ! ) and he took me around and showed me where there used to be pubs, but now they were something else. There were loads gone and very little remained considering the size of the population and most of that is because of the large Muslim population. I felt a little bit sorry for him to be honest, he said it 'wasn't the same' and that there was no 'community spirit' like there used to be, but he didn't say anything that was disrespectful. In fact he told me that everyone has a right to live wherever they want in the World and his sister lived in Spain and she was part of an 'English community' over there. He said the problem wasn't so much the intergration into London but the speed of it. I suppose what he meant was that he felt like that he was being pushed out, he never said it, but that was the feeling I got. My feeling from my time there is that it wouldn't take much to prompt a backlash and then a similar response in return. It isn't so much intergration into British society, more along the lines of putting up with one another. How would we feel in Shrewsbury if 20,000 Muslim people were intergrated in the next 20 years ? How would we feel when the things we see and love started to disappear and we found it wasn't easy to converse with our new neighbours ? How would we feel when some of the Muslim people started to demonstrate with so much hatred against our society and much loved Town ? Then after all that how would we feel if then a major terrorist event took place involving the Muslim religion ? Not happy I guess. Disgusted, outraged, revengeful maybe. I, like you, like to feel we're better than that, but people ultimately are just people, and there would undoubtedly be a backlash IMO. I just want the peaceful Muslim people to make themselves heard more in their condemnation of the lunatics that attach themselves to them. I also want them to do much more to extinguish these people from our society. Help root them out and give the message that it is completely unacceptable. Sadly, in the 9 years since 9/11, the Muslim religion is still seen in a bad light and ultimately therefore not enough has been done and I don't think that bodes well for the future.
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Post by champagneprince on Nov 13, 2010 0:09:05 GMT 1
news of religious bigotry, fanatical activists etc makes the headlines because, preverse as it may seem, it is what people want to read. News of peaceful protests, condemnation of extremist behaviour, by the relevant religious body, very rarely makes the headlines. If the peaceful Muslim people want it enough, they can make it happen and make themselves heard.
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Post by mattmw on Nov 13, 2010 0:26:03 GMT 1
Good points well made champagneprince
Integration between communities is tough issue as the case in London you have described shows. Change of that scale is tough however an area I've worked in at Bradford has shown where good community work had taken place bridges can be successful.
One of the areas where the riots took place now has a multi religious community centre built by funding from the muslim community but also used by other religious groups and local oap groups. A lot of hard work has been made by the Muslim community there and it's just a shame more good news stories aren't in the press - but I suppose that sells less papers than bad news
Excellent debating the issue with b&a chaps and chapesses but bed is calling - shall revert back to threads about our lack of a creative midfielder tomorrow!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2010 2:38:47 GMT 1
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Post by eclipsechaser on Nov 13, 2010 21:35:57 GMT 1
' It will end in tears ! '
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