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Post by El Huracán!!!! on Nov 11, 2010 10:33:51 GMT 1
NOTE - There have been a couple of reports about posts on this thread.... the mods will be taking a look and dealing with them ASAP
Remember this is a family messageboard for all ages, people really should think before they post......
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Post by nicko on Nov 11, 2010 11:22:28 GMT 1
Now this may sound controversial to some...but... Higher education is already oversubscribed. Perhaps this will stop some people doing 'nothing' degrees instead of heading into employment or other vocational training, and raising peoples expectations unnecessarily. I did not gain a degree or go to university (well, visited a few but not to study) but that did not stop me from achieving a hell of a lot, so far, and earning well above the national average. I also find the link most people make between your social background, and potential to achieve in life, nothing more than myth. If you try hard, and focus, you can do anything you want. Yes, access to ready funds (ie the wealthy families in life) makes things so much easier, but I think some people need a reality check. Life is not easy, but it is damned rewarding when you stick two fingers up to the people who expect you to fail, who then fall off their chairs when you surpass them. So what's a 'nothing degree'? It always amuses me when people say things like this. Funnily enough it's usually people who haven't studied at degree level. Yes HE is oversubscribed, but there are ways to gain a degree then without attending a University on a full time basis for 3/4 years. I mentioned on here recently about the number of young people on my OU course. As for your second paragraph. Yes life is hard and with hard work and focus you can achieve your goals. The point is though these fees will put even more barriers in the way of certain sections of our society making the whole process of HE even harder for them.
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Post by northwestman on Nov 11, 2010 11:46:33 GMT 1
I'm surprised that the Condems haven't learnt the lessons of history.
The 1st thing that Thatcher made sure of before embarking on her divisive policies was that the army and police were well catered for. She realised she'd need them in numbers.
I remember one of my ex students who became a police officer telling me that he was able to purchase a motor cruiser on the back of all the overtime he was paid for during the miners strike. Fittingly he named the boat "Arthur."
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Post by northwestman on Nov 11, 2010 11:55:56 GMT 1
By the way, are Educational Maintainance Allowances going to get the chop? Am not sure on this one.
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Post by nicko on Nov 11, 2010 11:58:43 GMT 1
I'm surprised that the Condems haven't learnt the lessons of history. The 1st thing that Thatcher made sure of before embarking on her divisive policies was that the army and police were well catered for. She realised she'd need them in numbers. I remember one of my ex students who became a police officer telling me that he was able to purchase a motor cruiser on the back of all the overtime he was paid for during the miners strike. Fittingly he named the boat "Arthur." It's come as no surprise that what happened yesterday has now been hijacked by issues with the Policing. The Police have their own agenda, which Paul MacKeever was good enough to mention on BBC News this morning. The irony is of course that the protesters and Police have the threats of future underfunding, budget and job cuts hanging over both of them.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Nov 11, 2010 12:04:52 GMT 1
It's calculated that if you earn £41k it will take 30 years to repay fees (assuming they are £27k) during which time you will pay £31k in interest. The way to avoid paying is to either get a low paying job, have rich parents who will pay the fees, emigrate after getting your degree or forget about further education. Excellent post Dave. In a nutshell.
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Post by northwestman on Nov 11, 2010 12:06:21 GMT 1
And of the two (protestors and police) I think the police have by far the better chance of eventually getting more funding.
I certainly go with the conspiracy theorists who suggest that this march was deliberately under policed in order for the police in general to pursue their agenda to be adequately resourced.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Nov 11, 2010 12:09:46 GMT 1
I've no problem with violence at these things, but you don't start it. In this case they did and that is poor. I wonder to what extent some of the vandalism was egged in by the media? I remember the cavalry charge at Cotgrave - the brick-throwing at the police didn't start until after the charge. Although interestingly at the time the two events were shown the opposite way round on news reports. The prism of the media again. Having been at the Poll Tax demonstration in London in the late 1980s and also read the news reports afterwards I do have to say "you had to be there."
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Post by Minor on Nov 11, 2010 12:27:23 GMT 1
Roof, Fire Extinguisher Thrown From, End of argument for any one with common sense surely Just because Jack or Jill won't go to 'Uni' , go get a job or do some voluntary work, like the rest of us.
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Post by mrbunny on Nov 11, 2010 12:49:51 GMT 1
Roof, Fire Extinguisher Thrown From, End of argument for any one with common sense surely Just because Jack or Jill won't go to 'Uni' , go get a job or do some voluntary work, like the rest of us. Seeing as they have good pictures of an oik on the roof holding the fire extinguisher they should send him to jail for that.Presuming it was the same person who threw it of course and no doubt someone will have caught him on camera doing it. The police should have been told to baton charge the thugs after they smashed their way into Tory HQ as they were just thugs wanting trouble not there for any peaceful protest.
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Post by shrew4life on Nov 11, 2010 13:03:20 GMT 1
Where does peaceful get you? They targeted the right building and it should make the torys sit up a bit and have a think about what they are doing.
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Post by mrbunny on Nov 11, 2010 13:05:11 GMT 1
Where does peaceful get you? They targeted the right building and it should make the torys sit up a bit and have a think about what they are doing. So you think the violence was good do you? You think throwing a fire extinguisher off the roof of a building was justified?
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Post by Minor on Nov 11, 2010 13:09:12 GMT 1
Where does peaceful get you? They targeted the right building and it should make the torys sit up a bit and have a think about what they are doing. Have you ever knocked over an empty fire extinguisher at ground level ?, do you have any idea what that would be like coming down from 60+ feet ?
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 11, 2010 13:22:21 GMT 1
Roof, Fire Extinguisher Thrown From, End of argument for any one with common sense surely Just because Jack or Jill won't go to 'Uni' , go get a job or do some voluntary work, like the rest of us. You mean all 50,000 down there were throwing fire extinguishers about? Or are we referring to one individual? One individual from approx 50,000 folk who were there?
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Post by nicko on Nov 11, 2010 13:26:11 GMT 1
Having been at the Poll Tax demonstration in London in the late 1980s and also read the news reports afterwards I do have to say "you had to be there." True, you have to be there. However these days everyone seems to have a camera on them. We can get a lot of different perspectives on these type of incidents and just not the vested interests version. Violence is bad who ever starts it, the question is; is it justifiable in the context of the situation? Yesterday a group of people decided to enter Tory HQ and managed to reach the roof. This resulted in violence against police officers and protesters, people got hurt and arrested. It made the news and we're still talking about it today. How many people remember the recent march in Birmingham? Granted, as it was Tory HQ that got it's windows smashed it will make the news, job done. Justifiable, I think so. Lets put this violence in perspective. Compared to the violence happening everyday in Afghanistan by the Coalition (in the name of freedom) and the innocents it affects yesterday was a school yard scrap between two 5 year olds.
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Post by shrew4life on Nov 11, 2010 13:26:20 GMT 1
Where does peaceful get you? They targeted the right building and it should make the torys sit up a bit and have a think about what they are doing. So you think the violence was good do you? You think throwing a fire extinguisher off the roof of a building was justified? No of course not, no one in there right mind would think that's ok. However trashing the HQ of the party screwing the people of this country over is fine. What else do you think will make the condems take notice? Do you honestly think a peaceful march through the streets will make a difference? A peaceful protest is perfect for the Tories because that way they are just a minor inconvenience which will soon pass. Peacful gets you nowhere with the current party in power. I think a lot of it comes down to anger due to the fact the lib dems sold out on one of there main promises which helped them win a lot of votes.
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Post by shrew4life on Nov 11, 2010 13:27:55 GMT 1
Where does peaceful get you? They targeted the right building and it should make the torys sit up a bit and have a think about what they are doing. Have you ever knocked over an empty fire extinguisher at ground level ?, do you have any idea what that would be like coming down from 60+ feet ? I didn't say I agreed with that!
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Post by shrewsace on Nov 11, 2010 13:28:58 GMT 1
Now this may sound controversial to some...but... Higher education is already oversubscribed. Perhaps this will stop some people doing 'nothing' degrees instead of heading into employment or other vocational training, and raising peoples expectations unnecessarily. I did not gain a degree or go to university (well, visited a few but not to study) but that did not stop me from achieving a hell of a lot, so far, and earning well above the national average. I also find the link most peoplemake between your social background, and potential to achieve in life, nothing more than myth. If you try hard, and focus, you can do anything you want. Yes, access to ready funds (ie the wealthy families in life) makes things so much easier, but I think some people need a reality check. Life is not easy, but it is damned rewarding when you stick two fingers up to the people who expect you to fail, who then fall off their chairs when you surpass them. Spot on Sir Only 7% of the population receives a private education, but 75% of judges and 45% of top civil servants went to independent schools. Read more here: www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/17/social-mobility-top-professions-elitistOur PM and deputy PM are from highly privilleged, privately educated backgrounds, our MPs are predominantly privately educated. Is this because people from privilleged backgrounds are born with the genes that allow them to 'work hard and focus'? Was David Cameron no more likely to become PM than someone born into a working class background with a state education? Don't be bloody ridiculous. Perhaps the reason so many people want to go to university is that employment prospects are so bleak - and about to become bleaker. The jobs aren't there for college leavers and many apprenticeships don't come with a guaranteed job at the end of it. A good education is the one thing a working class person can equip themselves with to help them avoid the dole queue and a lifetime in poorly paid, 'McJobs'. Now they will incur incredible debt if they want to get a degree. Many jobs also stipulate that the applicant must be educated to degree level that perhaps previously didn't. Another reason for people staying in education. Will these self same Tories still be moaning about immigration in ten, twenty years time, because we haven't educated enough of our own people to the standard required for many jobs? I don't condone violence and vandalism, but good on the 50,000 students who protested. Hopefully this is just the start of people standing up to this government's full on assault on public services and working / middle class people.
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Post by Minor on Nov 11, 2010 13:35:37 GMT 1
So you think the violence was good do you? You think throwing a fire extinguisher off the roof of a building was justified? No of course not, no one in there right mind would think that's ok. However trashing the HQ of the party screwing the people of this country over is fine. What else do you think will make the condems take notice? Do you honestly think a peaceful march through the streets will make a difference? A peaceful protest is perfect for the Tories because that way they are just a minor inconvenience which will soon pass. Peacful gets you nowhere with the current party in power. I think a lot of it comes down to anger due to the fact the lib dems sold out on one of there main promises which helped them win a lot of votes. So perhaps a visit to the 'hq' of the party who previously screwed the country over wouldn't have gone amiss ?
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Post by shrew4life on Nov 11, 2010 13:44:36 GMT 1
Go for it but I doubt you would get many joining you. I can't remember a mass protest against public sector cuts or for an increase in costs for higher education. I think people are beginning to realise how good they had it the last few years.
Every country has debt it's just about managing it but the Tories sorry condems have came into power and seem to still have a hangover from the last time they were in power and are continuing to screw people over and protect there own.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 11, 2010 14:11:54 GMT 1
Spot on Sir Only 7% of the population receives a private education, but 75% of judges and 45% of top civil servants went to independent schools. Read more here: www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/17/social-mobility-top-professions-elitistOur PM and deputy PM are from highly privilleged, privately educated backgrounds, our MPs are predominantly privately educated. Is this because people from privilleged backgrounds are born with the genes that allow them to 'work hard and focus'? Was David Cameron no more likely to become PM than someone born into a working class background with a state education? Don't be bloody ridiculous. Perhaps the reason so many people want to go to university is that employment prospects are so bleak - and about to become bleaker. The jobs aren't there for college leavers and many apprenticeships don't come with a guaranteed job at the end of it. A good education is the one thing a working class person can equip themselves with to help them avoid the dole queue and a lifetime in poorly paid, 'McJobs'. Now they will incur incredible debt if they want to get a degree. Many jobs also stipulate that the applicant must be educated to degree level that perhaps previously didn't. Another reason for people staying in education. Will these self same Tories still be moaning about immigration in ten, twenty years time, because we haven't educated enough of our own people to the standard required for many jobs? I don't condone violence and vandalism, but good on the 50,000 students who protested. Hopefully this is just the start of people standing up to this government's full on assault on public services and working / middle class people. Well said that man!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2010 14:13:27 GMT 1
Good post shrewsace
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Post by Shrewed on Nov 11, 2010 14:26:33 GMT 1
Be interesting to find out who gave permission for the route of yesterdays march, was it the police or/ and the government in waiting at County Hall.
Anyone with any sense must have realised the potential for violent confrontation allowing the march to walk past Conservative Central Office.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Nov 11, 2010 15:14:32 GMT 1
If you want a glimpse of the future of HE, come to Trafford. We are one of the few local authorities to retain selection at 11 and our MP (Graham Brady) is a vigorous campaigner for grammar schools.
He claims that grammar schools improve the educational chances of students from disadvantaged backgrounds, possible in theory but untrue in practice.
I know this because my youngest transferred from a high school to Altrincham Grammar School for 'A' levels. From a school with a population people with varied backgrounds and incomes she found herself among the prosperous and privileged - something she has found unnatural and unenjoyable.
These people have the means to send their children to private prep schools which intensively coach kids for the11+ and/or to private tutors. This means that very few children from poorer homes get to grammar school.
Now this system is to be extended to universities with only the better off being able to afford to go to the top institutions.
Mr Brady is closely associated with Michael Gove whose proposals for academies are undemocratic and a way of bringing in selection by the back door.
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Post by tvor on Nov 11, 2010 15:36:39 GMT 1
Oscar Wilde
There is so much that we take for granted today yet we wouldn't have without the actions of rebels, dissenters and activists in the past.
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Post by salopianed on Nov 11, 2010 16:06:29 GMT 1
surprise surprise, Heavenly ruins a perfectly sensible thread trying to grab some attention for himself. Grow up...... So you think these students who broke the law should get away with doing 1000s of pounds of damage Would you think the same if it was a bunch of chavs from south London 1) Of course I don't condone the criminal damage. However, it seems that the protests were infiltrated by some of the "loony left" who weren't even students. Remember 50,000 took part in this march. Don't tar everyone with the same brush. 2) I can't even see the link between your original post and your question regarding the South London Chavs.
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Post by eggyshrew on Nov 11, 2010 18:59:56 GMT 1
Maybe they should protest against the labour party headquarters. After all it was them that bled this country dry and have forced the hands of the conservatives in having to make these difficult decisions. [/quote Or it maybe they just dont have a clue mr BLUE
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Post by venceremos on Nov 11, 2010 19:14:08 GMT 1
Paxman made a good point on Newsnight that, instead of discussing higher education funding with ministers, senior academics and student leaders, last night's programme was about acceptable levels of protest. To that extent it's right to say the debate was hijacked.
On the other hand, the poll tax riots (and earlier inner city riots) did make people sit up and take notice, and a peaceful demonstration might not have done. Regrettable but probably true.
It's vital to keep the focus on the central issue though. When Michael Gove can say he doesn't accept that anyone (repeat, anyone) will be put off going to university by the proposed fee increases, in the face of an NUS survey saying 70% would think again, it looks suspiciously like the issue is being steamrollered by a government hell bent on pursuing its ideological goals.
Shame on the Lib Dems for meekly accepting an outright reversal of one of their main policies - a policy which won some Lib Dem MPs their seat in university town constituencies. To see one of them smiling as he said they could justify abandoning the policy because they didn't win a majority made me want to throw a fire extinguisher at him.
But the Lib Dems are a sideshow. It's the Tories that should be kept in focus, otherwise they'll watch the two progressive parties fighting each other while they smugly get away with whatever they like.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Nov 11, 2010 19:29:39 GMT 1
I think students having to make a full scale economic choice about going to Uni is a good thing.
Choosing a degree which opens career opportunities is a good thing.
I think we suffer in this country for being so obsessed with some of the arts and humanities subjects linked to elitist universities and schools which teach us to "think" but don't really equip students for the workplace. They say they train "young leaders" and all the rest of it and that may be true.
That subject choice may do you well if you went to Oxford but that is because you went to Oxford. Go to a university ina nearby town and do the same subject and no-one cares.
In Germany and Japan a good "technical" education is not what they send the thick people to do but is for ambitious people and "Engineering" is not just for geeks but for people who want to get to the top.
In this country if people do the sciences / engineering they are assumed to be geeks and if they do vocational subjects they are assumed to be at a lower academic standard.
And another few hundred people a year leave university with their classics degrees and get a job in the city of London based primarily on the reputation of the fee paying school their parents sent them to. That is what we actually seem to value.
Or thousands of students with a fully subsidised degree then go to a place of work and have to go through a whole other set of different vocational qualifications or end up doing another degree in something that actually makes them employable.
Maybe if there were more degrees in stuff like banking we wouldn't even be in this mess? Just a thought like.
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Post by El Presidente on Nov 11, 2010 19:59:06 GMT 1
Throb, I agree with a lot of what you say, which is chiefly what I was hinting at earlier with the term 'nothing degrees'. Too many people I know went to university, because it seemed like a good idea at the time. I work with a PhD Geographer graduate who spent the best part of 7 years at 2 different universities to figure out he didn't enjoy geography. Educate yourself to achieve in the sphere in which you wish to work. Or the other option, find an area you wish to work in, then build up experience, then gain qualifications as you work. HE direct from college at 18 is not the only route to high earnings and professional success. Shrewsace, your comments about our current cabinet, were they directed at my earlier post? I've re-read it and can not find any reference I made to wealthy students being more likely to work hard. Of note, the members of the Shadow Cabinet hardly hail from traditional working-class northern stock. Many grew up in affluent parts of London and its leafy environs; nine went to private schools, and the same number are Oxbridge graduates.
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