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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2006 21:37:16 GMT 1
Mark, can you :
* confirm what you mean by navel gazing * confirm how you have brought up your concerns either with a supporters group or with the club directly.
Cheers
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2006 21:39:57 GMT 1
[/img] Agree with Jamo/Nick to a degree that this isn't something to have a "Connery" about, that said, it is reflective of an ongoing lack of thought and consideration by the Club/the Board for the supporters that has been demonstrated on many issues. I have no problem with the seats not being B&A, all blue will be fine by me, and a nice compromise would be amber steps. What does grate is blue and white as these are not our colours. It would be a major backwards step in trying to keep the STFC brand going if we revert to being associated with blue & white rather than B&A, and just become one of many clubs associated with these colours. As others have said, the colour of our strip is one of our main USP's, a la "Spinal Tap", and our most successful period in the league etc and to even consider becoming just another club who plays in blue & white would be utter madness, and I think would be commercial suicide. How many opposition fans do you meet who as soon as they see your shirt from any distance know you follow Town and have a stroy to tell about coming to the Meadow or seeing the shirt in Spinal Tap or seeing us on TV for one of the big Cup upsets? How many would recognise us if we played in boring blue & white? The County badge is B&A, the Town badge is B&A, the most successful period in Town's existence in the League was when we played in B&A, a significant chunk of our fanbase will only have seen us play in B&A, everyone knows we play in B&A - end of story As Jamo has said, in the whole scheme of things there are more important things to worry about, such as: - access - parking - what assistance will be given to get supporters to ground from Town/train station - why the plans are squirrelled away and not in the public domain - bar and catering facilities (I am in no way attracted to the enticing prospect of standing under the concrete drinking watered down beer from a plastic glass served by a loser on the minimum wage [img src="http://www.shropshire.btinternet.co.uk/smiley/ www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0223.gif"].gif[/img]) - other facilities for fans at the site - name of the stadium/individual stands & any sponsorship arrangements - how much season tickets will cost - what other events are planned there for the 330+ days of the year when Town won't be playing there - other alternative income streams for the site All of these issues are of varying degrees of importance to each individual fan but they all are important, and with theortically less than 10 months to go before we should be playing our first game at the new stadium, the Club's silence or intransigence is a cause for significant concern. On a final point, I'm not involved with the varying fan groups, I know some off here are, hopefully this issue can be a spur for them all to spring into action on a collarobative basis - outside perception presently is that perhaps too much navel gazing goes on amongst these various groups, and not enough concerted and persuasive argument being made to the Club/Board that the fans as a collective deserve to be treated with a little respect and not taken completely for granted, which has sadly been the case for far too long (with no immediate sign of any change in this approach). [/quote] Top post
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Post by jaytee on Oct 12, 2006 21:50:02 GMT 1
I've got all the shirts from years ago. Nothing against "Link 51", but that white one with blue writing, never sees the light of day. Blue and Amber is what makes us distinctive. Cost? STFC in Amber on four stands? Doesn't sound that expensive to me. We have got to win this one. Some of you don't seem to think it's important. To me it's VITAL. They are trying to take away who I am.
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Post by MarkRowley on Oct 12, 2006 21:59:56 GMT 1
Mark, can you : * confirm what you mean by navel gazing * confirm how you have brought up your concerns either with a supporters group or with the club directly. Cheers Hi Gareth On the first point, the key aspect is perception, whether or not that refelects the actuality is of course a different question. It is often difficult to change someone's initial perceptions. In terms of general navel gazing, examples would include too much time/focus on: - what the name will be - how that name will be set out/what colour it will be - who will do what in the group/what titles they will have - having different groups trying to do the same things - having lots of different groups full stop pulling in different directions/with different agendas - lack of collarobation between those groups/no focus on "blanket bombing" the Board to achieve desired results - looking at the minutiae rather than the big picture In terms of my particular concerns, I don't think I raise anything which any sensible person wouldn't be worried about, and which any sensible businessman building a new location for his firm wouldn't think about, and therein on the latter bit probably lies the problem I would view lodging my thoughts/concerns here in plain view of various members of supporters groups puts them in the open domain. As for writing to the Club, I'm big enough and ugly enough to have a somewhat cynical view as to where any missive I would send to the Board would be filed (I think GP would reply to anything he was sent although he is not the man in power on these points, so I would only ever contact him about team matters). Hope that helps.
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Post by harmerhillshrew on Oct 12, 2006 22:03:34 GMT 1
Maybe the Rugby team are going to play in Blue and White
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2006 22:09:51 GMT 1
Mark, you're being very very general there - I assume you are directing your comments at shrewsTRUST?
I think you're absolutely correct in that the groups aren't pulling in the right direction. However, that is due to a number of issues such as certain existing groups.individuals who have their own small/large circle of power at the club unwilling to lose that.
It's going to take some hard work to break that down. Hard work and some willing individuals, of which sadly there are too few at present.
On re-reading your post, I think you're actually supporting a lot of what has been said on this thread.
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Post by tom_leather on Oct 12, 2006 22:51:09 GMT 1
Is there an address we can write/email to Mr Wycherley then? cheers
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Post by ianwhit on Oct 12, 2006 22:56:32 GMT 1
c/o the club
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Post by Exkeeper on Oct 12, 2006 23:06:35 GMT 1
I certainly intend to follow the "write a letter to the Chairman" route. They were glad of us when they needed letters writing to the council, newspapers etc., so surely they should at least consult us on something like this.
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Post by siabod on Oct 12, 2006 23:23:51 GMT 1
[/img].gif[/img] Agree with Jamo/Nick to a degree that this isn't something to have a "Connery" about, that said, it is reflective of an ongoing lack of thought and consideration by the Club/the Board for the supporters that has been demonstrated on many issues. I have no problem with the seats not being B&A, all blue will be fine by me, and a nice compromise would be amber steps. What does grate is blue and white as these are not our colours. It would be a major backwards step in trying to keep the STFC brand going if we revert to being associated with blue & white rather than B&A, and just become one of many clubs associated with these colours. As others have said, the colour of our strip is one of our main USP's, a la "Spinal Tap", and our most successful period in the league etc and to even consider becoming just another club who plays in blue & white would be utter madness, and I think would be commercial suicide. How many opposition fans do you meet who as soon as they see your shirt from any distance know you follow Town and have a stroy to tell about coming to the Meadow or seeing the shirt in Spinal Tap or seeing us on TV for one of the big Cup upsets? How many would recognise us if we played in boring blue & white? The County badge is B&A, the Town badge is B&A, the most successful period in Town's existence in the League was when we played in B&A, a significant chunk of our fanbase will only have seen us play in B&A, everyone knows we play in B&A - end of story As Jamo has said, in the whole scheme of things there are more important things to worry about, such as: - access - parking - what assistance will be given to get supporters to ground from Town/train station - why the plans are squirrelled away and not in the public domain - bar and catering facilities (I am in no way attracted to the enticing prospect of standing under the concrete drinking watered down beer from a plastic glass served by a loser on the minimum wage [img src="http://www.shropshire.btinternet.co.uk/smiley/ www.shropshire.btinternet.co.uk/smiley/www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0223.gif"].gif[/img].gif[/img]) - other facilities for fans at the site - name of the stadium/individual stands & any sponsorship arrangements - how much season tickets will cost - what other events are planned there for the 330+ days of the year when Town won't be playing there - other alternative income streams for the site All of these issues are of varying degrees of importance to each individual fan but they all are important, and with theortically less than 10 months to go before we should be playing our first game at the new stadium, the Club's silence or intransigence is a cause for significant concern. On a final point, I'm not involved with the varying fan groups, I know some off here are, hopefully this issue can be a spur for them all to spring into action on a collarobative basis - outside perception presently is that perhaps too much navel gazing goes on amongst these various groups, and not enough concerted and persuasive argument being made to the Club/Board that the fans as a collective deserve to be treated with a little respect and not taken completely for granted, which has sadly been the case for far too long (with no immediate sign of any change in this approach). [/quote] Why any loser "on a minimum wage" (or a volunteer doing the job for nothing) should be expected to serve such an obnoxiuos sounding prat as you is beyond me. I was lucky enough to earn a decent salary throughout my working life but worked with many people who were on the minimum wage most of whom were great people, to label all on minimum pay scale as losers asks the question why anything in your post should be taken seriosly.
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Post by mattsnapper2 on Oct 12, 2006 23:41:24 GMT 1
With Roland keeping the club afloat for so many years, personally keeping us out of administration, is he therefore in his rights to do what he pleases..? YES
but on this occasion he is WRONG
I do not beleive the STFC board have any clue or idea on corporate image and how Shrewsbury Town is unique in having amber and blue as its club colours. I could waffle on about the number of times I have worn a Town shirt at international sporting events and the number of foreign journalists who have come up to me and have known its a Shrewsbury Town shirt.
Blue and Amber = Shrewsbury Town FC Blue and White = Everton, Chester, Wigan, Reading, Portsmouth, Macc Town, Chelsea, Ipswich etc etc
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Oct 12, 2006 23:45:03 GMT 1
Some fantastic points being made now I agree with everything else that needs to be discussed, of course. I did the questionnaire for the supporter's bar, it is important to me. At the moment there are many "bigger fish to fry", absolutely agreed, 100%, no arguments. But there is only one fish in the pan right now, and the cheeky blue and white beggar is going to get a frying from me because it does matter! The reason for such an OTT reaction about the seats is because of the frustration of being fed a catalogue of half truths and slippery answers for the last couple of years. What the Chronicle found out proved what we have been pushing the club on for a couple of years. The bottom line is that no amount of discussion or letters or anything will make a difference if the club genuinely don't give a toss. I have never, ever received a reply to any letter i have sent to the club, and based on my role in supporter's groups that amounts to over 50 letters ot players, staff, directors, coaching staff etc etc. What today proved is that: a) they were not listening b) they pretended to listen and did what they wanted anyway The anger you hear expressed is because if this is what their policy is on seats then what confidence does that give you for parking, the supporter's bar etc etc. We may have already lost much larger battles than this and we don't even know it yet, because no-one will tell us, and even if they ask our opinion they have already made the decision.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2006 23:45:31 GMT 1
That's a superb post Mark, I've nothing more to add :-)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2006 23:50:06 GMT 1
[/img] Agree with Jamo/Nick to a degree that this isn't something to have a "Connery" about, that said, it is reflective of an ongoing lack of thought and consideration by the Club/the Board for the supporters that has been demonstrated on many issues. I have no problem with the seats not being B&A, all blue will be fine by me, and a nice compromise would be amber steps. What does grate is blue and white as these are not our colours. It would be a major backwards step in trying to keep the STFC brand going if we revert to being associated with blue & white rather than B&A, and just become one of many clubs associated with these colours. As others have said, the colour of our strip is one of our main USP's, a la "Spinal Tap", and our most successful period in the league etc and to even consider becoming just another club who plays in blue & white would be utter madness, and I think would be commercial suicide. How many opposition fans do you meet who as soon as they see your shirt from any distance know you follow Town and have a stroy to tell about coming to the Meadow or seeing the shirt in Spinal Tap or seeing us on TV for one of the big Cup upsets? How many would recognise us if we played in boring blue & white? The County badge is B&A, the Town badge is B&A, the most successful period in Town's existence in the League was when we played in B&A, a significant chunk of our fanbase will only have seen us play in B&A, everyone knows we play in B&A - end of story As Jamo has said, in the whole scheme of things there are more important things to worry about, such as: - access - parking - what assistance will be given to get supporters to ground from Town/train station - why the plans are squirrelled away and not in the public domain - bar and catering facilities (I am in no way attracted to the enticing prospect of standing under the concrete drinking watered down beer from a plastic glass served by a loser on the minimum wage [img src="http://www.shropshire.btinternet.co.uk/smiley/ www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0223.gif"].gif[/img]) - other facilities for fans at the site - name of the stadium/individual stands & any sponsorship arrangements - how much season tickets will cost - what other events are planned there for the 330+ days of the year when Town won't be playing there - other alternative income streams for the site All of these issues are of varying degrees of importance to each individual fan but they all are important, and with theortically less than 10 months to go before we should be playing our first game at the new stadium, the Club's silence or intransigence is a cause for significant concern. On a final point, I'm not involved with the varying fan groups, I know some off here are, hopefully this issue can be a spur for them all to spring into action on a collarobative basis - outside perception presently is that perhaps too much navel gazing goes on amongst these various groups, and not enough concerted and persuasive argument being made to the Club/Board that the fans as a collective deserve to be treated with a little respect and not taken completely for granted, which has sadly been the case for far too long (with no immediate sign of any change in this approach). [/quote] Sorry for the confusion, this is Mark's post I was referring to :-)
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Post by mattsnapper2 on Oct 13, 2006 0:00:18 GMT 1
I HATED 1987 when we wore white shirts and blue shorts after completing a succesful season with the likes of Gerry Daly wearing the Arsenal type amber and blue kit.
I know we started out in blue and white, and Roland used to watch from the terraces and saw them play in that so I understand thats in his blood and memory just like when I first saw STFC in amber and blue in 1976.
Issues about parking, supporters bars etc are all valid, but our club colours are our identity.
Letters to the papers will show the Shrewsbury public we are proud of our town, proud of our colours and want to wear amber and blue when travelling the length and bredth of this isle representing the county town of Shropshire.
If the supporters bar is as small as I think it is then whatever, life goes on. We can all drink somewhere else. Its not the end of the world. We have no fan revenue stream and if we dont at the new ground then its something we are not going to lose on.
Regarding kit colours, the board should be embarrased. The football club belongs to the town.
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Post by jaytee on Oct 13, 2006 0:01:37 GMT 1
I am obviously not the only one who has sent a letter, (in fact, several) to the Club, and not received a reply. Look at the number of replies to this thread. The alarm bells should be ringing in the boardroom. If necessary, I will write to our ruthless leader. I know he said he is only interested in the football side, but it does affect him if people are showing discontent. And I for one, am very discontented. It's MY Club, not Roland's or Keith's, ignore us at your peril.
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Post by braindead on Oct 13, 2006 1:16:50 GMT 1
I'm sure I am not alone in suspecting that the blue and white seats are the first shift towards a "rebranding" of the clubs image. Much like Barca adopting a childrens charity as its shirt sponsor is most likely a step in the direction of desensitising its supporters to the issues surrounding corporate shirt sponsorship in the not to distant future. Roland may well have done a decent job financially, well done to Roland, however lets not forget that this has as much to do with luck (penalty shoot outs) as it does with judgment. One could argue that Rolands time in charge has generally seen STFC demise to new depths.....bumming around the bottom of the pro football pyramid. STFC would have gone on without Roland, never forget that football clubs die when the fans revolt, it doesn't matter who your chairman is, it is always the supporters who bail the club out of the s**t.... I have to say that this decision is systematic of STFC, it's just another crass, ill thought out decision, and to be honest the sooner we get some fan friendly and forward thinking people on the board the better.... We've been made to look like monkeys by the local councl and Sara, we are moving to a new ground, yet know little of the facilities that will be available, how and where exactly we will park and what the park and ride system will be. yet we are supposed to be moving into this new groung 9 months time....
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Post by Salop_Ian on Oct 13, 2006 8:48:58 GMT 1
Rolannd may well have done a decent job financially, well done to Roland, however lets not forget that this has as much to do with luck (penalty shoot outs) as it does with judgment. One could argue that Rolands time in charge has generally seen STFC demise to new depths.....bumming around the bottom of the pro football pyramid. STFC would have gone on without Roland, never forget that football clubs die when the fans revolt, it doesn't matter who your chairman is, it is always the supporters who bail the club out of the sh!t.... In 1995-6 STFC made a £250k loss despite having had a cup run that led to the game against Liverpool and got to a Wembley cup final. When Ray Bailey resigned the club had a £900k overdraft and it was only Roland’s personal intervention that prevented the banks pulling the plug on the club. A lot of painful decisions had to be made to ensure that Town’s finances were put back in reasonable order. This was in a climate when the small clubs were being shafted by the bigger clubs who ensure that less and less of the wealth in the game was distributed to the lower divisions. Town has struggled because of its narrow financial base and its small turnover. Rather than being the cause of the problems the boards has done a heroic managing ensuring the club has survived. RW has done two things for the club – invested in a youth system which has started to show fruit with players like Hart coming through (one player that will hopefully produce transfer income of £1.5m) and worked for nearly a decade to achieve the move to a new ground that will hopefully transform the club’s financial position. Getting developers to sign £13m contracts are not decided by penalty shoot-outs. That fact that we have weathered a massive storm and that the club is now in a good position to go forward isn’t just down to GP. Indeed, unless the club had been prepared to back GP with the investment he wanted we wouldn’t be in this position. If the club hadn’t been so soundly managed financially and we didn’t have the new ground in prospect GP has made it clear that he wouldn’t have been remotely interested in coming to STFC.
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Post by nicko on Oct 13, 2006 8:54:00 GMT 1
However, that is due to a number of issues such as certain existing groups.individuals who have their own small/large circle of power at the club unwilling to lose that.
Hit the nail right on the head there. BTW Welshshrew I'm more than happy to meet you for a pint and discuss this as I personally do face to face better if you know what I mean.
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Post by nicko on Oct 13, 2006 8:55:52 GMT 1
In 1995-6 STFC made a £250k loss despite having had a cup run that led to the game against Liverpool and got to a Wembley cup final. When Ray Bailey resigned the club had a £900k overdraft and it was only Roland’s personal intervention that prevented the banks pulling the plug on the club.
A lot of painful decisions had to be made to ensure that Town’s finances were put back in reasonable order. This was in a climate when the small clubs were being shafted by the bigger clubs who ensure that less and less of the wealth in the game was distributed to the lower divisions. Town has struggled because of its narrow financial base and its small turnover. Rather than being the cause of the problems the boards has done a heroic managing ensuring the club has survived.
RW has done two things for the club – invested in a youth system which has started to show fruit with players like Hart coming through and worked for nearly a decade to achieve the move to a new ground that will hopefully transform the club’s financial position. Getting developers to sign £13m contracts are not decided by penalty shoot-outs.
That fact that we have weathered a massive storm and that the club is now in a good position to go forward isn’t just down to GP. Indeed, unless the club had been prepared to back GP with the investment he wanted we wouldn’t be in this position. If the club hadn’t been so soundly managed financially and we didn’t have the new ground in prospect GP has made it clear that he wouldn’t have been remotely interested in coming to STFC.
Excellent post sir.
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Post by Fingers on Oct 13, 2006 9:44:47 GMT 1
Am i alone in thinking that perhaps this could be a massive marketing operation?
The club has not officially commented yet - correct?
Perhaps they are using the great technique of threatening to take something away to see how passionate people are about it.
Remember Salad cream was going to be taken off the shelves and then what happened? Sales Boomed.
Of course on the other hand they could have decided to run with this B&W and now after the response it is getting be about to change their mind.
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Post by stockportershrew on Oct 13, 2006 9:46:15 GMT 1
Am i alone in thinking that perhaps this could be a massive marketing operation? The club has not officially commented yet - correct? Perhaps they are using the great technique of threatening to take something away to see how passionate people are about it. Remember Salad cream was going to be taken off the shelves and then what happened? Sales Boomed. Of course on the other hand they could have decided to run with this B&W and now after the response it is getting be about to change their mind. do you really think that they are that clever?
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Post by Fingers on Oct 13, 2006 9:54:17 GMT 1
Im always willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt.
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Post by Fat Cat on Oct 13, 2006 10:03:06 GMT 1
Then of course the idea of having blue and white seats is brought up without any intention of having them.
There’s a big out cry and the club announces that it has listened to the fans and makes a magnanimous “concession”.
Later on when there a more major issue is at stake the club says we do listen to the fans as evidenced over the colour of the seats. We gave way on that, so it’s only fair that we should be allowed be make the decision on this one.
You might be not need to be clever to get along in business but being devious helps.
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Post by El Presidente on Oct 13, 2006 10:07:29 GMT 1
Then of course the idea of having blue and white seats is brought up without any intention of having them. There’s a big out cry and the club announces that it has listened to the fans and makes a magnanimous “concession”. Later on when there a more major issue is at stake the club says we do listen to the fans as evidenced over the colour of the seats. We gave way on that, so it’s only fair that we should be allowed be make the decision on this one. You might be not need to be clever to get along in business but being devious helps. And now we are all second guessing everything that is going on, conspiracy theories racing away...
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Post by stockportershrew on Oct 13, 2006 10:07:57 GMT 1
I more inclined to believe cock-up, rather than conspiracy, theories where STFC are concerned.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2006 10:13:01 GMT 1
Rolannd may well have done a decent job financially, well done to Roland, however lets not forget that this has as much to do with luck (penalty shoot outs) as it does with judgment. One could argue that Rolands time in charge has generally seen STFC demise to new depths.....bumming around the bottom of the pro football pyramid. STFC would have gone on without Roland, never forget that football clubs die when the fans revolt, it doesn't matter who your chairman is, it is always the supporters who bail the club out of the sh!t.... In 1995-6 STFC made a £250k loss despite having had a cup run that led to the game against Liverpool and got to a Wembley cup final. When Ray Bailey resigned the club had a £900k overdraft and it was only Roland’s personal intervention that prevented the banks pulling the plug on the club. A lot of painful decisions had to be made to ensure that Town’s finances were put back in reasonable order. This was in a climate when the small clubs were being shafted by the bigger clubs who ensure that less and less of the wealth in the game was distributed to the lower divisions. Town has struggled because of its narrow financial base and its small turnover. Rather than being the cause of the problems the boards has done a heroic managing ensuring the club has survived. RW has done two things for the club – invested in a youth system which has started to show fruit with players like Hart coming through (one player that will hopefully produce transfer income of £1.5m) and worked for nearly a decade to achieve the move to a new ground that will hopefully transform the club’s financial position. Getting developers to sign £13m contracts are not decided by penalty shoot-outs. That fact that we have weathered a massive storm and that the club is now in a good position to go forward isn’t just down to GP. Indeed, unless the club had been prepared to back GP with the investment he wanted we wouldn’t be in this position. If the club hadn’t been so soundly managed financially and we didn’t have the new ground in prospect GP has made it clear that he wouldn’t have been remotely interested in coming to STFC. well said.
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Post by Blue_is_the_colour on Oct 13, 2006 11:34:11 GMT 1
They don't sell Coke in blue cans. They did try calling it a different name though, that failed. British Airways changed its image, weird tail fins, and it was an abysmal failue and they changed it back. The Post Office changed it's image, to Consignia, and it was a failure, so they changed it back. 85% of fans think Blue and Amber are the club's colour. The chairman agrees with 5% of fans. Many firms would die for the loyalty shown by fans of STFC. To not listen to them, or their wishes, despite the fact they were important in the process of getting a new ground, is a very real shame. Go to the Deva Stadium Alan & Nick. Look up at those beautiful big white and blue seats, spelling out the name of their club. Their club boys, not ours. Same with Everton, Chesterfield, Reading, Sheffield Wednesday, Ipswich, Cardiff, QPR, Chelsea, Luton, Portsmouth, Peterborough, Stockport, Brighton, Oldham, Gillingham, Carlisle. What is unique about STFC? What do we have that no other club has? "Blue and Amber" Well said !! (except Luton are black and white) but even so !!
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Post by El Huracán!!!! on Oct 13, 2006 11:34:50 GMT 1
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Oct 13, 2006 11:52:57 GMT 1
Luton?
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