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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 7, 2024 13:02:18 GMT 1
Israel is not blameless for the Hamas attack? Thanks. That settles it. In other news I want Israel to stop fighting straight away. And for there to be peace in Gaza. For all innocents to be safe. Israel has had 75 years to look for a sustainable way for both sides to live alongside each other, but have turned away from it at every opportunity. Do you really think Hamas or Hezbollah would have become a thing if all the people living in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank were all treated as equals? If that had been the case the people of the occupied territories would not have chosen the evil of Hamas over moderate and sane political choices. Israel is still killing people in the West Bank as well as Gaza. Every dead parent or child only leads to more hatred and more recruitment opportunities for Hamas . How is Israel going to destroy Hamas when they are in fact the biggest driver in future recruitment? It's a vicious circle and it needs both sides to work together to square it up. I can't see that happening in the near future, but killing innocent people, creating martyrs and breeding even more hatred isn't going to lead to more moderate people coming to the table, so the killing needs to stop, the aid needs to flow and the people of Gaza need to be given the money and equipment to rebuild their territory. Give them hope and the promise of peace and the people might just find a way to forgive and let bygones be bygones. It might take a good while, but surely that beats the alternative of more hatred, more terrorist attacks, more retaliation and ever more innocent lives being taken, by both sides. You make many good points and in the broadest sense I agree with much of what your are saying, but it's utterly spoiled by the assertion that Israel has had 75 years to find peace. The same Israel that was attacked in 1948, 1967 and 1973. Peace is a two way street. There will never be peace while the main purpose of one side is the total destruction of the state of Israel. The Good Friday agreement, the transition out of Apartheid, none of it happens while one side continues to aim for the destruction of the other.
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 7, 2024 13:19:41 GMT 1
Israel has gone out of its way to alienate every neighbour over the last 75 years and yes that has led to those countries on a couple of occasions over that time starting trouble. However with financial and military support of the west they have easily repelled those attacks.
Do you honestly think that if Israel had tried to be a good neighbour those countries would have attacked them?
I hate all forms of extremism be that religious or political and in most cases they are both based on one group of people believing that they are somehow better than another group. We all want to live our lives in peace and most of us want to contribute to the society we live in, but if that society discriminates against you it is incumbent on you to fight back.
The Palestinian people in the occupied territories are actively discriminated against on a daily basis, is it any wonder that they feel the need to push back occasionally?
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 7, 2024 13:49:37 GMT 1
Israel was invaded 3 times in its first 30 years and it's to blame. Do you realise how bonkers that sounds? There is not a word to convey the depth of the nonsense.
So the Hamas attack was the fault of Israel.
The attacks on Israel were the fault of Israel.
Spoken with some legitimate arguments but when you boil it down, they bring destruction upon themselves, and ultimately deserve it.
That's not a position I'm comfortable with.
It's been found in everything from right wing European extremism, African marxism, radical islam.
It's always ultimately the Jews fault and they deserve what happens to them.
We've heard that before.
That's not to gloss over the awful atrocities committed by the state of Israel and the Zionist nut jobs stoking the fire.
But it's not a fire they lit.
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 7, 2024 14:31:53 GMT 1
Israel was invaded 3 times in its first 30 years and it's to blame. Do you realise how bonkers that sounds? There is not a word to convey the depth of the nonsense. So the Hamas attack was the fault of Israel. The attacks on Israel were the fault of Israel. Spoken with some legitimate arguments but when you boil it down, they bring destruction upon themselves, and ultimately deserve it. That's not a position I'm comfortable with. It's been found in everything from right wing European extremism, African marxism, radical islam. It's always ultimately the Jews fault and they deserve what happens to them. We've heard that before. That's not to gloss over the awful atrocities committed by the state of Israel and the Zionist nut jobs stoking the fire. But it's not a fire they lit. I am not saying that Israel was to blame for those attempts to invade, but they could have tried to be a good neighbour which would have mitigated the risks of being invaded. A lot has changed over the last 40 years or so and they do have some sort of relationship with many Arab nations, but the way they treat Palestinians has actually deteriorated. That mistreatment has increased over the last 10 or 15 years with even children being targeted by the IDF. Did they not light the fire? Palestine was a country where Jews, Arabs and Christians lived alongside each other quite happily. The Zionists came in and changed everything. No-one and I mean no-one on this thread has been in any way anti-semitic or called for the destruction of Israel or that the people of either side deserve what has happened to them, but somehow you find a way to not only twist people's words, but to also accuse me in a roundabout way of being an anti-semite or worse. It's a good job I don't stoop to the level of some by running to the mods.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 7, 2024 14:43:40 GMT 1
No I don't think you are anti-semitic.
Nor am I a spokesperson for the Israeli government. Or a Zionist.
I believe in a two state solution and I don't believe it'll happen in my lifetime.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 8, 2024 16:15:55 GMT 1
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 9, 2024 20:12:17 GMT 1
So UK Lawyers for Israel got all their members to sign a letter to Sunak. No vested interest there I'm sure.
Also GBbeebies, seriously?
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 10, 2024 5:49:24 GMT 1
A bit of light reading for anyone on either side of the argument to have a look at.
Netanyahu and Likud have helped prop up Hamas in Gaza for years, potentially decades, with the sole aim of dividing the Palestinian Authority and the people of the West Bank from those in Hamas and Gaza. If the two sections of Palestine cannot be seen to to find agreement how can there possibly be a future for a Palestinian state. The PA accept the right of Israel to exist, Hamas don't and while these viewpoints remain unreconciled the Palestinians will never be able to find agreement on a way towards a Two State Solution. Divide and conquer.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 10, 2024 7:20:31 GMT 1
The kind of people eroding trust in the mainstream media are Donald Trump and Russell Brand. Have to disagree with that. I'd say those who are eroding trust in the legacy media (or the mainstream media if you prefer) is the media itself. Just to add something more here with the release of this article, so clearly this is something some within the mainstream media are well aware of themselves... I’ve Been at NPR for 25 Years. Here’s How We Lost America’s Trust.
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 10, 2024 7:31:07 GMT 1
Have to disagree with that. I'd say those who are eroding trust in the legacy media (or the mainstream media if you prefer) is the media itself. Just to add something more here with the release of this article, so clearly this is something some within the mainstream media are well aware of themselves... I’ve Been at NPR for 25 Years. Here’s How We Lost America’s Trust.More very selective links from our friend in Germany. The Free Press was founded and is run by Bari Weiss who just happens to be a vocal supporter of the Zionist movement.
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Post by pughywasfree on Apr 10, 2024 9:16:20 GMT 1
27 pages of discussion for a conflict over land. Any group/state that purposely kills innocent people is evil and should be treated as a terrorist. Leaders of both sides have blood on there hands. Anyone who assists either side also have blood on there hands.
All over an invisible line between two pieces of dirt.
Ironic that we sent so much resources to Ukraine because they were being invaded and we are more than happy to send resources to Israel.
It's all totally bonkers if you think about it.
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Post by The Clash 1966 on Apr 10, 2024 13:20:51 GMT 1
One tiny shaft of light to come out of this is that during the rebuild there could be some amazing archaeological discoveries to be Found.
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 10, 2024 14:18:19 GMT 1
One tiny shaft of light to come out of this is that during the rebuild there could be some amazing archaeological discoveries to be Found. Is the British Museum running out of exhibits? 😜
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Post by The Clash 1966 on Apr 10, 2024 15:14:06 GMT 1
I'm thinking more along the lines of street layouts and social history.
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Post by davycrockett on Apr 10, 2024 15:49:26 GMT 1
I'm thinking more along the lines of street layouts and social history. What from when Israel stole it from Egypt?
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Post by The Clash 1966 on Apr 10, 2024 16:43:35 GMT 1
I'm thinking more along the lines of street layouts and social history. What from when Israel stole it from Egypt? no, more along Roman and pre Roman / biblical era
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 10, 2024 20:51:01 GMT 1
27 pages of discussion for a conflict over land. Any group/state that purposely kills innocent people is evil and should be treated as a terrorist. Leaders of both sides have blood on there hands. Anyone who assists either side also have blood on there hands. All over an invisible line between two pieces of dirt. Ironic that we sent so much resources to Ukraine because they were being invaded and we are more than happy to send resources to Israel. It's all totally bonkers if you think about it. I am in agreement with you re borders, random lines, mostly drawn up by the rich and powerful, in most cases centuries ago, which have little relevance in the days we are now living in, when all the information you could ever need is in the palm of your hand and you can travel to places even our parents could only ever dream of.
However the majority of this thread has been one faction supporting the side that is bombing Palestinian women and children into oblivion versus the other faction that is on the right side of history. Not actually bonkers from one of those factions. I'll let you work out which one
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 10, 2024 21:00:22 GMT 1
One tiny shaft of light to come out of this is that during the rebuild there could be some amazing archaeological discoveries to be Found. Amongst the corpses?
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Post by pughywasfree on Apr 10, 2024 21:52:24 GMT 1
27 pages of discussion for a conflict over land. Any group/state that purposely kills innocent people is evil and should be treated as a terrorist. Leaders of both sides have blood on there hands. Anyone who assists either side also have blood on there hands. All over an invisible line between two pieces of dirt. Ironic that we sent so much resources to Ukraine because they were being invaded and we are more than happy to send resources to Israel. It's all totally bonkers if you think about it. I am in agreement with you re borders, random lines, mostly drawn up by the rich and powerful, in most cases centuries ago, which have little relevance in the days we are now living in, when all the information you could ever need is in the palm of your hand and you can travel to places even our parents could only ever dream of.
However the majority of this thread has been one faction supporting the side that is bombing Palestinian women and children into oblivion versus the other faction that is on the right side of history. Not actually bonkers from one of those factions. I'll let you work out which one I'm sorry to admit that I wasn't too clued up on the conflict (I don't watch the news) but after reading bits of this thread I did some research. I'm ashamed at our involvement in this conflict. Good guys of this world my ass.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 11, 2024 7:59:35 GMT 1
I’ve seen one or two interviews from the Saturday marches where you have had people looking to downplay or even dismiss the atrocities of October 7th but I had no idea it was so widespread. Apparently, according to a recent poll conducted by the Henry Jackson Society anyhow… Just one in four British Muslims believe Hamas committed murder and rape in Israel...which perhaps then explains why 46% of British Muslims said they sympathize with Hamas. And according the polling its younger and well-educated Muslims who were the most likely to think Hamas did not commit atrocities on October 7th, with the proportions rising to 47 per cent among 18 to 24-year-olds and 40 per cent among the university-educated. Yet no doubt these are the type of people who are online and more likely to have the footage and testimony from October 7th available to them. I mean for all the appalling footage I have seen from October 7th the most distressing for me wasn't so much the extremely graphic up close footage of the killings and bodies (although of course that is distressing) but the footage from afar of Palestinian gunmen coming across unsuspecting Israelis who had no idea what was happening; as two Israeli women run for their lives a Palestinian gunman goes in pursuit and shoots one in the back, knowing she is unable to outrun her pursuer the other turns and drops to her haunches and I can only gather she then pleads for her life. Yet after just a few seconds the gunman moves forward and shoots her at point blank range. So its pretty clear what went on, there is no avoiding or denying it. For anyone interested the full poll findings can be viewed HERE.
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Post by The Clash 1966 on Apr 11, 2024 11:32:51 GMT 1
One tiny shaft of light to come out of this is that during the rebuild there could be some amazing archaeological discoveries to be Found. Amongst the corpses? not interested in history I take it?
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 11, 2024 12:46:00 GMT 1
not interested in history I take it? Oh yes, very interested in history, but also in human suffering. You are not interested in human suffering I take it?
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 11, 2024 13:14:31 GMT 1
not interested in history I take it? I think a good many of us are but that does seem rather trivial with everything that's going on there at the minute.👍
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 14, 2024 9:18:07 GMT 1
This has the potential to get really messy. No doubt some on here will be pointing all the blame at Iran while others will be aiming their fingers towards Israel, but this isn't the time to be looking for scapegoats, it's now more than ever a time for everyone involved to be taking a step back. I'm pretty sure that no-one in their right mind wants this to escalate even further, but without some top notch diplomacy we're looking at an all out war which will eventually put the whole region in danger.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 14, 2024 10:07:40 GMT 1
Well things have escalated with Iran sending rockets and drones at Israel. I think this is a pretty good article as to why Iran is now attacking Israel, just a quick bit of background... Why has Iran attacked Israel?
I suppose there is now an awful lot going on behind the scenes to try and cool things down. Whether Iran will just want to be seen to be retaliating and not allowing Israel's attack on Damascus go unanswered and that will be the end of it, who knows. Or we may now see Hezbollah increase their attacks on Israel and that may then bring the war to Lebanon (again). Of course this is nothing new to Israel but the cynic in me can't help but think this escalation helps Israel somewhat and, perhaps 'welcomes it' isn't the right term, but you know what I mean. I say that because from becoming ever more isolated with their actions in Gaza we now once again see the international community and more importantly their closest allies rallying to their side again. Like I say, just the cynic in me... Lets hope things deescalate quickly anyhow.
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 14, 2024 10:35:02 GMT 1
Well things have escalated with Iran sending rockets and drones at Israel. I think this is a pretty good article as to why Iran is now attacking Israel, just a quick bit of background... Why has Iran attacked Israel?
I suppose there is now an awful lot going on behind the scenes to try and cool things down. Whether Iran will just want to be seen to be retaliating and not allowing Israel's attack on Damascus go unanswered and that will be the end of it, who knows. Or we may now see Hezbollah increase their attacks on Israel and that may then bring the war to Lebanon (again). Of course this is nothing new to Israel but the cynic in me can't help but think this escalation helps Israel somewhat and, perhaps 'welcomes it' isn't the right term, but you know what I mean. I say that because from becoming ever more isolated with their actions in Gaza we now once again see the international community and more importantly their closest allies rallying to their side again. Like I say, just the cynic in me... Lets hope things deescalate quickly anyhow. For a change on this thread we are broadly in agreement. My main concern is that if the hawks in the US try to use this as an excuse to attack Iran. Let's be honest there has been anti-Iranian feeling in the corridors of power over there for decades. Many have not forgiven them for hostage crisis back in 1980 that made the US look weak and they have been searching for an excuse to go in ever since.
I don't think the owd regime change malarky is going to go down well in Iran and if they do go in on the pretext of WMD again and don't find any again it's not going to be a good look for the West in general.
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Post by Worthingshrew on Apr 14, 2024 11:31:18 GMT 1
Jeremy Bowen has been saying for a while that Iran doesn’t want an all out war with Israel, but I guess they felt compelled to launch some retaliation.
Did they give Israel hours notice of the impending attack, given the time it drones to fly to Israel? Seems to me if that’s right, that they didn’t want to inflict much or any damage?
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 14, 2024 12:16:17 GMT 1
Well things have escalated with Iran sending rockets and drones at Israel. I think this is a pretty good article as to why Iran is now attacking Israel, just a quick bit of background... Why has Iran attacked Israel?
I suppose there is now an awful lot going on behind the scenes to try and cool things down. Whether Iran will just want to be seen to be retaliating and not allowing Israel's attack on Damascus go unanswered and that will be the end of it, who knows. Or we may now see Hezbollah increase their attacks on Israel and that may then bring the war to Lebanon (again). Of course this is nothing new to Israel but the cynic in me can't help but think this escalation helps Israel somewhat and, perhaps 'welcomes it' isn't the right term, but you know what I mean. I say that because from becoming ever more isolated with their actions in Gaza we now once again see the international community and more importantly their closest allies rallying to their side again. Like I say, just the cynic in me... Lets hope things deescalate quickly anyhow. For a change on this thread we are broadly in agreement. My main concern is that if the hawks in the US try to use this as an excuse to attack Iran. Let's be honest there has been anti-Iranian feeling in the corridors of power over there for decades. Many have not forgiven them for hostage crisis back in 1980 that made the US look weak and they have been searching for an excuse to go in ever since. I don't think the owd regime change malarky is going to go down well in Iran and if they do go in on the pretext of WMD again and don't find any again it's not going to be a good look for the West in general.
If only those managing the situation in the Middle East could reach a peace agreement like this. I'm with Jeremy Bowen/Worhingshrew above on this, Iran had put itself in a place where a show of force "had" to be made, but doesn't want to start an all out war - they must have known that Israel would have defences in place to nuetralise virtually all the drones, etc. aimed at them.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 14, 2024 15:08:11 GMT 1
No-one wants this growing arms and legs.
I read that 1.3 billion dollars of fuel and equipment was used to shout down the drones and missiles.
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 14, 2024 15:45:23 GMT 1
No-one wants this growing arms and legs. I read that 1.3 billion dollars of fuel and equipment was used to shout down the drones and missiles. Greta needs to refocus her climate change efforts onto peace instead of disrupting what the public perceive as fuel use they have to make to live. The waste and pollution from the war in Ukraine, this, etc. is shameful.
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