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Post by Minormorris64 on Jan 5, 2011 10:49:20 GMT 1
This years Accounts released by Companies House confirm an operating LOSS of £475,345. With also a reduction in Turnover from £4,212,450 to £3,684,462
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Post by ratcliffesghost on Jan 5, 2011 10:52:48 GMT 1
I&E accounts mean virtually nothing read alone - need to be viewed alongside the balance sheet. I await Ant's annual review
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Post by nicko on Jan 5, 2011 10:57:37 GMT 1
I await Ant's annual review And so is the Chairman...
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Jan 5, 2011 11:01:16 GMT 1
Guess the Hart money will cover the difference!?
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Post by El Huracán!!!! on Jan 5, 2011 11:04:41 GMT 1
Does anyone expect anything that a slightly worse performance of the buisness (excluding any money from transfers/Hart ect)
Having been through a recession I cant think that its going to be to much of a shock if the performance of the buisness side of the the club (coperate, resturaunt, sales) is down on the last few seasons.
Its debt we want to be avoiding and as far as Im aware there is little or none of that?
Hopefully the beancounters will give us the low down to make a value judgement when its appropriate
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Post by spartan on Jan 5, 2011 11:07:49 GMT 1
No trip to Wembley in 2010 for the play-off finals another factor to consider, alongside the buying out of player and manager contracts?
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Post by stfcfan87 on Jan 5, 2011 11:14:22 GMT 1
Still regardless of what the accounts say I'm sure a load of ignorant twerps will soon be demanding the club spends money on buying players again
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Post by jaytee on Jan 5, 2011 12:22:34 GMT 1
Let's spend money buying players.
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Post by elmundo on Jan 5, 2011 12:33:50 GMT 1
Let's spend money buying players. You ignorant twerp!
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Post by ratcliffesghost on Jan 5, 2011 12:37:46 GMT 1
Its debt we want to be avoiding and as far as Im aware there is little or none of that? Hopefully the beancounters will give us the low down to make a value judgement when its appropriate I will leave this to Ant as he is a Private Sector "Beancounter" whilst I am a public sector "Beancounter" so it is more his area. However, a quick skim shows at 30/6/2010 we have net assets of £13,047,152 SO DONT PANIC !!!!!!! To me, the accounts look more or less as one would expect in a recession. Debtors (the people who owe us but have yet to pay have increased nearly £300k between years). Debtors building up are common in times of recession and when they are recovered our bank balance will look a lot healthier - although it was still in excess of £1.1m at 30/6/2010. Re other issues raised above Turnover significantly down presumably due to lack of cup runs / no annual wembley trip. That said, we do recoup a fair bit here usually. Season ticket sales in advance received by 30th June fell by £72k compared to last year (as presumably have most div 2 clubs) This is tempered by some good news Creditors (the people we owed at 30/6/10 was £130k less than at the same time last year) "The Cloth has been cut" Admin expenses are £12k down on last year, Salaries and wages fell by £235k between years as total staff numbers fell from 100 to 91. Of more interest is what is not in there which will be in next years accounts Oh, and tax payable for the Year...............................£0 CELEBRATARY GLASS OF PORT
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Jan 5, 2011 12:40:17 GMT 1
Its debt we want to be avoiding and as far as Im aware there is little or none of that? Hopefully the beancounters will give us the low down to make a value judgement when its appropriate I will leave this to Ant as he is a Private Sector "Beancounter" whilst I am a public sector "Beancounter" so it is more his area. [glow=red,2,300] However, a quick skim shows at 30/6/2010 we have net assets of £13,047,152 SO DONT PANIC !!!!!!![/glow] To me, the accounts look more or less as one would expect in a recession. Debtors (the people who owe us but have yet to pay have increased nearly £300k between years). Debtors building up are common in times of recession and when they are recovered our bank balance will look a lot healthier - although it was still in excess of £1.1m at 30/6/2010. Re other issues raised above - Season ticket sales in advance received by 30th June fell by £72k compared to last year (as presumably have most div 2 clubs)
This is tempered by some good news
- "The Cloth has been cut" Admin expenses are £12k down on last year, Salaries and wages fell by £235k between years as total staff numbers fell from 100 to 91.
Of more interest is what is not in there which will be in next years accounts
Oh, and tax payable for the Year...............................£0
CELEBRATARY GLASS OF PORT
I might be wrong but weren't our net assest valued at £16mil last year? I can't imagine many (if any) league 2 clubs (or indeed any clubs for that matter) making much of a profit in the current climate, 400K is pretty hefty but we're still in a much healtheir position than most
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Post by ratcliffesghost on Jan 5, 2011 12:50:47 GMT 1
Our Net Assets were £15.5m last year and are £15.2m this year, however a capital grant needs to be knocked off for the true figure, hence the £13,047,152 (2009 was £13,322,397) Agreed re the healthy position - we've taken the oppertunity to write some "junk" off too but that's for Ant
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Post by stfcfan87 on Jan 5, 2011 13:06:56 GMT 1
One thing about the debtors though - as you say it has increased by nearly £300k - is that you'd hope it doesn't build up and isn't to people facing hard times e.g. in the past Portsmouth's financial problems caused large amounts of other businesses etc to not receive the full amount. I can't think that other football clubs who are in financial difficulty owe us money (for transfers), but private businesses maybe a different story.....
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Post by ratcliffesghost on Jan 5, 2011 13:12:11 GMT 1
One thing about the debtors though - as you say it has increased by nearly £300k - is that you'd hope it doesn't build up and isn't to people facing hard times e.g. in the past Portsmouth's financial problems caused large amounts of other businesses etc to not receive the full amount. I can't think that other football clubs who are in financial difficulty owe us money (for transfers), but private businesses maybe a different story..... Agreed.
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Post by Amsterdammer on Jan 5, 2011 13:18:01 GMT 1
Good analysis RG. Revenues 530k down, but costs have been curbed by 430k - the main reasons for a bigger loss.
It's very similar to last year. The balance sheet is good news, the loss is bad news but hardly surprising and sustainable for a few years yet before any extra money needs to be found.
"The Board have decided to proceed next season with a more measured approach to finance." is a quote from Roland's statement at the front. He also emphasises investment in youth development and "laying foundations for success" through prident investment to "achieve our immediate goal of playing football at League 1 level".
The transfers are quite interesting. I believe these show: - We spent 65k last season (Elder?). - We in 410k in transfers (Holt?). - The benefits from the Holt sale seem to have been tempered by writing off some players values which would include Holt (as we didn't own his contract after we sold him).
It also confirms for me that no one has 'trousered' anything. The money is there and audited. Directors salaries/fees were 11k and no dividends have been paid out. In fact 200k was put into the club, presumably including Mr Hughes.
I await the accountant's view....
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Post by stockportershrew on Jan 5, 2011 13:44:21 GMT 1
Firstly, for those of us who don't understand accountancy how long can we go on making losses of this size? Secondly, did we underestimate the costs of running a new stadium - when we moved?
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Post by Amsterdammer on Jan 5, 2011 13:50:56 GMT 1
Firstly, for those of us who don't understand accountancy how long can we go on making losses of this size? Secondly, did we underestimate the costs of running a new stadium - when we moved? Forever if people keep putting money in or we sell the stadium. Before that 3 more years is my guess. But the losses are simply a result of the club stretching itself to succeed, and that success not been delivered has cost. It appears that belts have been tightened and there's a recession on.
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Post by stockportershrew on Jan 5, 2011 13:58:57 GMT 1
Firstly, for those of us who don't understand accountancy how long can we go on making losses of this size? Secondly, did we underestimate the costs of running a new stadium - when we moved? Forever if people keep putting money in or we sell the stadium. Before that 3 more years is my guess. But the losses are simply a result of the club stretching itself to succeed, and that success not been delivered has cost. It appears that belts have been tightened and there's a recession on. We've also had the added bonus of some fairly unprecedented transfer income (Hart, Edwards and Holt) since we moved. We'd be lucky to generate such cash again in the next few years (unless Bradshaw becomes the next Ian Rush). At the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious we need get promotion v.quickly otherwise we're in danger of wasting a once in generation opportunity?
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Post by Pilch on Jan 5, 2011 14:00:53 GMT 1
How much do the club value blue and Amber at ?
We are surly one of their biggest assets ;-)
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Post by ShrewsburySTFC on Jan 5, 2011 14:02:17 GMT 1
But the assets are based on our stadium being worth around £14m. I bet if revalued now, we could get half that as the land isn't worth that now. If we come into trouble and had to mortgage our stadium, we wouldn't get the £14m it's currently valued at, the lender would give us far less.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2011 14:06:12 GMT 1
The accounts, combined with the fact that 3 and a half seasons on from the stadium move we are still struggling to become a club that can challenge even at the top of League 2, are an indication of failure to me.
It also shows just how far from reality any comments or short-term aspirations of us becoming a 'Championship club' actually are.
But of course, overall, these results are far from disastrous. Our future as a Football League club remains very bright. However, in terms of 'kicking on', serious questions have to be asked about whether this will happen in the short term.
Stockporter - in answer to your second question, the view from Ian Bebington, Keith Sayfritz and Roland Wycherley, was that we had no idea how to go about running a football stadium like the Greenhous when we got there. The view from Keith and Roland came at a meeting when they were explaining the appointment of Rob Bickerton. The view from Ian came at a meeting on the 13th January last year with Jon Harris, Martin James, himself and James Hughes. It was explained then that the set-up was now there (although of course there has been a significant departure) to get the stadium into shape to take advantage of. These accounts will not account for any impact that has been made by Ian.
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Jan 5, 2011 14:06:16 GMT 1
Do we own the Powerleague pitches and bar or we renting the space?
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Jan 5, 2011 15:24:18 GMT 1
But the assets are based on our stadium being worth around £14m. I bet if revalued now, we could get half that as the land isn't worth that now. If we come into trouble and had to mortgage our stadium, we wouldn't get the £14m it's currently valued at, the lender would give us far less. I've never understood why your place of business/where you live is considered an asset. Without it you could not conduct your business/have to live in a cardboard box.
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Post by MarkRowley on Jan 5, 2011 15:52:05 GMT 1
But the assets are based on our stadium being worth around £14m. I bet if revalued now, we could get half that as the land isn't worth that now. If we come into trouble and had to mortgage our stadium, we wouldn't get the £14m it's currently valued at, the lender would give us far less. I've never understood why your place of business/where you live is considered an asset. Without it you could not conduct your business/have to live in a cardboard box. If you are operating from a site that a) could be included as a sale of your business as a going concern, b) if you fail can be readily occupied by another business or c) has significant alternative use potential, then a suitable asset value and level of depreciation in the accounts is fine. The difficulty when putting a value on a site occupied by a professional sport club is there are few prospects of any of those coming to fruition save for the site being sold on for say housing, which would need revised planning. There is no onus on the club though to revalue the site each year, so whilst yes the site will not be worth £14m in the current climate, so as long as we are depreciating the value from the date that £14m value was placed on the site that is in order.
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Post by andygroundo on Jan 5, 2011 16:35:30 GMT 1
I've never understood why your place of business/where you live is considered an asset. Without it you could not conduct your business/have to live in a cardboard box. If you are operating from a site that a) could be included as a sale of your business as a going concern, b) if you fail can be readily occupied by another business or c) has significant alternative use potential, then a suitable asset value and level of depreciation in the accounts is fine. The difficulty when putting a value on a site occupied by a professional sport club is there are few prospects of any of those coming to fruition save for the site being sold on for say housing, which would need revised planning. There is no onus on the club though to revalue the site each year, so whilst yes the site will not be worth £14m in the current climate, so as long as we are depreciating the value from the date that £14m value was placed on the site that is in order. So once this present goverment turns the country round, the housing boom takes off, the Golf Course gets built on as well as the ground between Oteley Road and the new by pass (A5) the football ground will be prime building land and worth alot more That will be the time to sell it off and build a new ground
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Post by Minormorris64 on Jan 5, 2011 16:45:10 GMT 1
If you are operating from a site that a) could be included as a sale of your business as a going concern, b) if you fail can be readily occupied by another business or c) has significant alternative use potential, then a suitable asset value and level of depreciation in the accounts is fine. The difficulty when putting a value on a site occupied by a professional sport club is there are few prospects of any of those coming to fruition save for the site being sold on for say housing, which would need revised planning. There is no onus on the club though to revalue the site each year, so whilst yes the site will not be worth £14m in the current climate, so as long as we are depreciating the value from the date that £14m value was placed on the site that is in order. So once this present goverment turns the country round, the housing boom takes off, the Golf Course gets built on as well as the ground between Oteley Road and the new by pass (A5) the football ground will be prime building land and worth alot more That will be the time to sell it off and build a new ground And some lovely new toys, machinery to use, happy new year to all grass cutters and pitch curators
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Post by MarkRowley on Jan 5, 2011 16:51:19 GMT 1
So once this present goverment turns the country round, the housing boom takes off, the Golf Course gets built on as well as the ground between Oteley Road and the new by pass (A5) the football ground will be prime building land and worth alot more That will be the time to sell it off and build a new ground Absolutely spot on sir - a few years of patience to see the coalition's well thought out plans take us out of the mess left by McBrown's mob and Town will be sitting on a gold mine
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Post by stockportershrew on Jan 5, 2011 19:08:23 GMT 1
The accounts, combined with the fact that 3 and a half seasons on from the stadium move we are still struggling to become a club that can challenge even at the top of League 2, are an indication of failure to me. It also shows just how far from reality any comments or short-term aspirations of us becoming a 'Championship club' actually are. But of course, overall, these results are far from disastrous. Our future as a football League club remains very bright. However, in terms of 'kicking on', serious questions have to be asked about whether this will happen in the short term. Stockporter - in answer to your second question, the view from Ian Bebington, Keith Sayfritz and Roland Wycherley, was that we had no idea how to go about running a football stadium like the Greenhous when we got there. The view from Keith and Roland came at a meeting when they were explaining the appointment of Rob Bickerton. The view from Ian came at a meeting on the 13th January last year with Jon Harris, Martin James, himself and James Hughes. It was explained then that the set-up was now there (although of course there has been a significant departure) to get the stadium into shape to take advantage of. These accounts will not account for any impact that has been made by Ian. Presumably though we must have looked at other clubs who moved stadium in recent years? I assume then we wasted a year with Bickerton and failed to develop income streams in a way that the club hoped for. It seems to me that to me that even if we get promoted we'll need to significantly expand our revenue from somewhere. Crowds would increase but we'd still be a fairly small club in League 1.
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Post by venceremos on Jan 5, 2011 19:50:37 GMT 1
The accounts, combined with the fact that 3 and a half seasons on from the stadium move we are still struggling to become a club that can challenge even at the top of League 2, are an indication of failure to me. It also shows just how far from reality any comments or short-term aspirations of us becoming a 'Championship club' actually are. But of course, overall, these results are far from disastrous. Our future as a football League club remains very bright. However, in terms of 'kicking on', serious questions have to be asked about whether this will happen in the short term. Stockporter - in answer to your second question, the view from Ian Bebington, Keith Sayfritz and Roland Wycherley, was that we had no idea how to go about running a football stadium like the Greenhous when we got there. The view from Keith and Roland came at a meeting when they were explaining the appointment of Rob Bickerton. The view from Ian came at a meeting on the 13th January last year with Jon Harris, Martin James, himself and James Hughes. It was explained then that the set-up was now there (although of course there has been a significant departure) to get the stadium into shape to take advantage of. These accounts will not account for any impact that has been made by Ian. Presumably though we must have looked at other clubs who moved stadium in recent years? I assume then we wasted a year with Bickerton and failed to develop income streams in a way that the club hoped for. It seems to me that to me that even if we get promoted we'll need to significantly expand our revenue from somewhere. Crowds would increase but we'd still be a fairly small club in League 1. You couldn't possibly regard the club's current position as a "failure" based on 3.5 years' use of an asset with an expected economic life of 100 years. There was never going to be an instant transformation. As long as the financial position remains strong (and it is, despite these recessionary losses) then we can build up the club sustainably. Whether that takes us to the Championship remains to be seen. But plenty of "small" clubs have set the precedent and continue to thrive, whilst plenty of "big" clubs are struggling to stay afloat and would collapse without their backers. We seem to me to be doing OK.
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Post by venceremos on Jan 5, 2011 19:55:45 GMT 1
So once this present goverment turns the country round, the housing boom takes off, the Golf Course gets built on as well as the ground between Oteley Road and the new by pass (A5) the football ground will be prime building land and worth alot more That will be the time to sell it off and build a new ground Absolutely spot on sir - a few years of patience to see the coalition's well thought out plans take us out of the mess left by McBrown's mob and Town will be sitting on a gold mine I'm guessing this isn't sarcasm (but sorry for missing it if I'm wrong). Surely we've finally learned that making fortunes out of assets is an economic bubble waiting to be burst? Real wealth has to be created, not inflated by debt.
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